(03-09-2016, 01:22 PM)MidTowner Wrote: [ -> ] (03-09-2016, 11:51 AM)Canard Wrote: [ -> ]Waterloo has giant Danger/Don't cross here signs there but people just push past the fence anyway. Â
If it is NOT truly a danger, then it's problematic because it leads to a culture of feeling that it is ok to just ignore signs and do whatever the hell you want. Then someone gets killed by a train or falls down a pit where there really IS a danger, and the project is delayed and opening will get pushed back (which will really annoy me.).
I think this is very well-said. If it’s a case that it’s perfectly safe, then people are being inconvenienced for no reason. I know that some people are crossing at Waterloo, but they are not supposed to be and from what I can observe most people are going around to Duke. As far as the City and Region are concerned, Waterloo and King are both closed, and Duke will be, too. I don’t think they are assuming that the detour is only affecting the risk-averse and the law-abiding.
Two important reasons which seem to be less of a concern in this discussion but are the real reasons for the danger or keep out warnings:
For insurance reasons if GrandLinq doesn't sign and fence these areas (they are doing the same in downtown Waterloo, University area or the Waterloo-Victoria Street closure and everywhere they are undertaking construction) they would have no chance of entering a mitigation defence in a situation where a trespasser is injured or killed. Sometimes it is hard enough to ensure the protection of workers on these sites let alone trespassers.
Secondly, construction sites are heavily regulated in Ontario and this area has both federal and provincial jurisdiction watching over it. Fencing and signage is required by law. At the most simplistic end of things required include hard hats and appropriately coloured outer clothing are required on site and many many more regulations come into play at every minute of the day.
Deterrence is an action that is defensible in court, negligence is not.
(03-10-2016, 05:18 PM)isUsername Wrote: [ -> ] (03-10-2016, 03:31 PM)Canard Wrote: [ -> ][…]
Sorry - grew up in a train family and Operation Lifesaver was drilled into my head from a very, very early age. I respect these machines - they have no respect for me!
The railway that crosses Queen St. S. near Mill St. and goes by Victoria Park has at least three movements on most days. There's also a pedestrian crossing a few hundred meters up where the tracks cross the Iron Horse Trail. These trains don't normally blow their horns, either.
The horn isn't the only audible warning device. Trains also have bells, and the trains ring their bells at the road crossing and at the Iron Horse Trail crossing.
A crossing seems to be acceptable in this case, despite what is probably more interaction between trains and pedestrians/cyclists than would be on Waterloo St.
I don’t know the actual details, but I do know the mainline where Waterloo St. crosses has faster trains than a lot of the other tracks in town. Essentially I would consider almost any apparently excessive safety requirement related to the Waterloo Spur to be probably actually excessive; but I would not have that opinion re: Waterloo St. crossing the main line. I don’t feel that I am knowledgeable about the speeds on the line you’re talking about.
My question would be why they removed the crossing protection from Waterloo St. Before all this happened there was nothing wrong with that crossing. Indeed, if this is for several months, why not re-install the protection? The detour currently required is quite significant for a pedestrian.
(03-10-2016, 09:49 AM)MidTowner Wrote: [ -> ] (03-09-2016, 11:26 PM)ijmorlan Wrote: [ -> ]I think there is a tendency to kneejerk: either any complaint about closures is just a version of NIMBY — any excuse to complain about the LRT project; or any closure is just part of Ken Seiling’s master plan to force everybody to ride the white elephant LRT by snarling traffic. Real life, of course, is more complicated than either of these options.
I don’t think it’s at all NIMBY to question whether more could have been done to prevent a detour of a kilometre. That’s a substantial barrier for a lot of people.
Agreed. My phrasing may have been unclear. I’m suggesting that one group of people (typically but not necessarily people who support LRT) will dismiss any criticism of a closure, while another group (typically but not necessarily LRT denialists) will complain about any closure, no matter how obviously necessary.
Other people will actually think about the specific issue being discussed and say something thoughtful.
Would it be possible for a set of temporary stairs/ramp to be built over Waterloo or Duke St?
Work at Fairview is
starting as early as tomorrow with track installation scheduled for the summer. Work on Wilson is starting in a few months and should last 2 months.
I'm not sure if they proofed their notice very well:
Quote:Starting in late-March, for approximately two months, access to and from Wilson will be limited to emergency services, hospital patients, local residents and businesses only at the following intersections: Fairview and Kingsway
Unless they're talking about the nursing home on Kingsway, there isn't a hospital accessible from Wilson. Â Likely re-using one from when roads were closed around GRH.
Over on Charles this morning, the tarp-tents had their endcaps open so the tracks could be seen.
![[Image: 5KzCAxm.png]](http://i.imgur.com/5KzCAxm.png)
![[Image: T00yOHe.png]](http://i.imgur.com/T00yOHe.png)
(03-10-2016, 10:56 PM)ijmorlan Wrote: [ -> ]My question would be why they removed the crossing protection from Waterloo St. Before all this happened there was nothing wrong with that crossing. Indeed, if this is for several months, why not re-install the protection? The detour currently required is quite significant for a pedestrian.
As I said before, it's very likely that the control system for the Waterloo crossing was interrelated to the King street crossing, so when King was disabled, so too was Waterloo.
Your assumption earlier in your post about frequency and speed is correct; while on the spur, that one freight train up to Elmira is limited to something like 20 km/h, and even have a flagman at the crossings (I've never actually been able to catch one in motion on the spur). Again, this is because the crossings are not (yet) active (bells/lamps), and the train isn't allowed to blow its horn with the standard call ( _ _ . _). On the mainline, there are closer to 10-20 train movements per day, and the speeds are much higher on many of those, mostly passenger.
I am sort of in disbelief that some are trying to justify breaking a safety rule at the sake of convenience. I'm guessing those same people have never set foot in a factory floor, either, and would balk at wearing safety shoes or hearing protection.
What if the region subsidized a shuttle service using GRT? Or just made travel between iXpress stops on either side of the tracks fareless for that one stop?
(03-11-2016, 07:07 AM)Canard Wrote: [ -> ]Your assumption about frequency and speed is correct; while on the spur, trains move at something like 20 km/h and even have a flagman at the crossings (I've never actually been able to catch one in motion on the spur). On the mainline, there are closer to 20 train movements per day and the speeds are much higher.
Saw one in Uptown near Caroline and Erb once.
(03-11-2016, 07:07 AM)Canard Wrote: [ -> ]I am sort of in disbelief that some are trying to justify breaking a safety rule at the desire for convenience. I'm guessing those same people have never set foot in a factory floor, either, and would balk at wearing safety shoes or hearing protection.
People always make risk vs convenience trade-offs all the time. People are not robots and always try to do the easiest thing. Trying to deny human nature is a losing proposition.
Sure they do - and sometimes, when they make those decisions, they get hurt or killed.
Let's not harbour a culture of ignorance around rail safety so close to trains running down our streets at speed.
(03-11-2016, 07:07 AM)Canard Wrote: [ -> ]What if the region subsidized a shuttle service using GRT? Or just made travel between iXpress stops on either side of the tracks fareless for that one stop?
I don’t think the detour justifies the potential cost of a shuttle service. Nor the number of people it affects (I’m one of them, but I think it’s not a huge number). It’s only eight weeks that Duke will be closed, at least as scheduled.
The iXpress stops on either side of the detour aren’t particularly close- King at Victoria and Weber at Guelph currently, maybe as far as Uptown when the King/Union intersection is open- and GRT would probably not be willing to slow the service for everyone accommodating fareless passengers between two stops.
I don't really see how someone walking over the tracks when there are no trains or construction equipment in sight at Waterloo St. is a big deal. It seems like a pretty reasonable convenience benefit to risk trade off. I think its necessary to put up signs and equipment telling people its closed, but I also don't have a problem with people taking their life in their own hands and choosing to cross in completely safe conditions.
Its been a few years since I moved back to the region from living in a bigger city and it still amuses me when people are waiting at small pedestrian crossings with clear visibility in all directions and no cars around.
(03-10-2016, 10:56 PM)ijmorlan Wrote: [ -> ]I don’t know the actual details, but I do know the mainline where Waterloo St. crosses has faster trains than a lot of the other tracks in town.
Currently they cross Waterloo St. at near walking speed because of the overpass construction.
(03-11-2016, 10:24 AM)SammyOES Wrote: [ -> ]I don't really see how someone walking over the tracks when there are no trains or construction equipment in sight at Waterloo St. is a big deal. Â It seems like a pretty reasonable convenience benefit to risk trade off. Â I think its necessary to put up signs and equipment telling people its closed, but I also don't have a problem with people taking their life in their own hands and choosing to cross in completely safe conditions.
Its been a few years since I moved back to the region from living in a bigger city and it still amuses me when people are waiting at small pedestrian crossings with clear visibility in all directions and no cars around.
I'm one of those people. I also stop at red lights when I'm driving if there's no one else around.
I follow the rules.
: shrug :
(Can we move on?)
Just for the record, stopping at a red light with nobody around when driving a car isn't really analogous to the situations we're talking about. Â You can have better situational awareness on foot and the risk of hurting someone else is significantly lower when on foot then in the car.
Right; of course. Let's move on?
Anybody up by University of Waterloo today? How's that catenary coming along by Columbia?