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That is a stupid excuse. If we can build the monstrosity that was done on Lexington, we can certainly build a transition to protected lanes on that part of University.
Is a roll curb significantly better than a 0.6m painted buffer? The buffer would be flat but significantly wider. (Yes, a real curb would be the most effective.)
(06-04-2018, 10:47 AM)tomh009 Wrote: [ -> ]Is a roll curb significantly better than a 0.6m painted buffer? The buffer would be flat but significantly wider. (Yes, a real curb would be the most effective.)

Yes, a roll curb is more effective, drivers are much more likely to avoid a curb, even a roll curb while traveling at speed, they won't bother to avoid paint. As for wider, I doubt it, most curbs are around 0.5 meters in width, the space consumed is probably going to be comparable.

The biggest problem, IMO about a roll curb is it doesn't prevent parking, which isn't as big an issue on that section of road.  That being said, it still makes sense to use a barrier curb where possible.
All right, thanks. Maybe one way to improve the painted buffer would be to cut grooves into it, similar to the edges of the 401 etc. Those are loud enough to discourage most drivers from driving on them.
(06-04-2018, 01:39 PM)tomh009 Wrote: [ -> ]All right, thanks. Maybe one way to improve the painted buffer would be to cut grooves into it, similar to the edges of the 401 etc. Those are loud enough to discourage most drivers from driving on them.

I think that's a great idea!
How has everyone been handling the faux-cycling lane SB on King between Allen and Union?

I had been taking the actual full vehicle lane, but after a few bad experiences with drivers tail-gating, honking, yelling, and gesturing for me to use the "cycling" lane I was intimidated in to using the fake lane, but then had the problem of getting trapped in the turning lane between unyielding traffic and the curb when the "lane" ends just before Union.

I have since avoided the stretch altogether.

I wish they hadn't painted any line or at least hatched out the space between the lane edge and the curb.

Is there a universal, polite, hand gesture for, "that's not a bike lane"?
I would never, ever ride in the traffic lane here - there's no reason to. I always ride to the side, which is perfectly reasonable - sure, we could argue it's not technically a bike lane... but it effectively is. There's only one symbol of paint that is missing and that doesn't somehow make it not functional as such.

The problem is, as you say, just before Union. I just look over my shoulder, signal and give a friendly "Thank you" wave and people are generally reasonable and it all works out.

The real problem in this area is heading North, at Allen - that is an absolutely terrible transition. I always shift over to taking the lane (signaling left) and sometimes hold my arm out to make it well known I'm about to make a sharper-than-normal turn across the tracks... then hug to the right again, and give a big "thank you" wave as the cars go past me.
(06-05-2018, 08:40 PM)Pheidippides Wrote: [ -> ]How has everyone been handling the faux-cycling lane SB on King between Allen and Union?

I had been taking the actual full vehicle lane, but after a few bad experiences with drivers tail-gating, honking, yelling, and gesturing for me to use the "cycling" lane I was intimidated in to using the fake lane, but then had the problem of getting trapped in the turning lane between unyielding traffic and the curb when the "lane" ends just before Union.

I have since avoided the stretch altogether.

I wish they hadn't painted any line or at least hatched out the space between the lane edge and the curb.

Is there a universal, polite, hand gesture for, "that's not a bike lane"?

To answer your question...no...hell, there's not a polite universal gesture for "that ditch isn't a bike lane"...

You'll get no arguments from anyone (except a few staff, who tell me time and time again that I can take the lane...helpful) that this is quite utterly terrible.  In my opinion the engineers who designed it should lose their iron rings, but I'm sure it meets all the standards written in all the traffic guidelines used in the Region...so...apparently it's fine then.

Ehh...I'm just whining, my answer, is to avoid it as well.  I take a much longer route to avoid riding there.
I should note that I've been thinking a lot about how dangerous it's going to be/feel riding on the right side of the road, between traffic on the left, and LRV's on the right on the side-running sections.  There's zero buffer there at all and the trains are huge.  Imagine riding along and having a truck on your left an an LRV on your right?  No fun.
(06-05-2018, 09:10 PM)Canard Wrote: [ -> ]I would never, ever ride in the traffic lane here - there's no reason to.

But there is reason. If you were ever involved in a crash you would likely be charged with an improper entry to the roadway, passing on the shoulder (right), or unsafe lane change. Plus, the lane is narrow enough that, except for really small cars, vehicles can't actually move over enough to give you the 1m they are required to when passing you.

(06-05-2018, 09:10 PM)Canard Wrote: [ -> ]The problem is, as you say, just before Union.  I just look over my shoulder, signal and give a friendly "Thank you" wave and people are generally reasonable and it all works out.

That works about 50% of the time for me. The other half of the time, even if I start signalling well before I need to (i.e. John St), I end up having to come to a full stop and wait for the stream of traffic to pass because no one is willing to let me over.
Wow, we have had really, really different experiences - and I totally respect that. I'm always kind of amazed that I generally have no issues and so many other people have such a bad time out there.
(06-05-2018, 09:57 PM)Canard Wrote: [ -> ]Wow, we have had really, really different experiences - and I totally respect that.  I'm always kind of amazed that I generally have no issues and so many other people have such a bad time out there.

That's called the Farwell Effect.  :-)
(06-05-2018, 09:10 PM)Canard Wrote: [ -> ]I would never, ever ride in the traffic lane here - there's no reason to.  I always ride to the side, which is perfectly reasonable - sure, we could argue it's not technically a bike lane... but it effectively is.  There's only one symbol of paint that is missing and that doesn't somehow make it not functional as such.

The problem is, as you say, just before Union.  I just look over my shoulder, signal and give a friendly "Thank you" wave and people are generally reasonable and it all works out.

The real problem in this area is heading North, at Allen - that is an absolutely terrible transition.  I always shift over to taking the lane (signaling left) and sometimes hold my arm out to make it well known I'm about to make a sharper-than-normal turn across the tracks... then hug to the right again, and give a big "thank you" wave as the cars go past me.

As you say, you do seem to have different experiences.  Perhaps you are more tolerant.

To be fair, I've only ridden this road two or three times each way, so my experiences aren't so reliable...it may even have improved as drivers have figured out that they shouldn't bother driving it up King anymore.

As you say, north of Allen and at Moore are the worst places.  At Moore I jump on the sidewalk.  It is supposed to be a MUT, but clearly engineers didn't get the message.

At Allen, both times I've crossed there, while trying to achieve the necessary angle to safely cross the tracks, the car behind me has interpreted that as me turning left, and had a close call as they try to pass me on the right.  Both times the driver apologized, but it's clear the design is completely broken.

I run into a similarly awkward angled crossing when proceeding eastbound on Erb across Caroline, but I haven't had any close calls there yet.

On the other hand, this is an example of where drivers shouldn't be upset following bicycles.  Both times I have biked down it, (admittedly, I was in a rush, which is why I biked on King, and it was during rush hour), I was able to easily match pace with the traffic, arriving in downtown along with the same cars who I left uptown with.  There was no need for the drivers to pass me on the shoulder (as well as cut me off around the hospital).

I will say, that because traffic is going so slowly, it's not nearly as uncomfortable feeling as when I come up behind cars parking the bike lane on say Columbia.  But, after being hit I am far more uncomfortable with the sound of a car coming up behind me than I was before, to the point that, I'm no longer comfortable riding around parked cars, and will usually jump onto the sidewalk.  This is the same uncomfortable experience I get every time the bike lane disappears.
(06-05-2018, 09:20 PM)Canard Wrote: [ -> ]I should note that I've been thinking a lot about how dangerous it's going to be/feel riding on the right side of the road, between traffic on the left, and LRV's on the right on the side-running sections.  There's zero buffer there at all and the trains are huge.  Imagine riding along and having a truck on your left an an LRV on your right?  No fun.

This is not actually something I've considered before...and is a good point.  So far, and this is getting increasingly dangerous, I've felt very safe riding next to the tracks, thanks to the questionable decision to use a roll curb, there's a very easy escape onto the tracks from traffic...I've even seen more than one cyclist forced onto the tracks by overtaking cars, but that's only the illusion of a safe place to escape too.
(06-05-2018, 09:15 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: [ -> ]You'll get no arguments from anyone (except a few staff, who tell me time and time again that I can take the lane...helpful) that this is quite utterly terrible.  In my opinion the engineers who designed it should lose their iron rings, but I'm sure it meets all the standards written in all the traffic guidelines used in the Region...so...apparently it's fine then.

Ehh...I'm just whining, my answer, is to avoid it as well.  I take a much longer route to avoid riding there.

No you’re not Confused

I think the design issues related to bicycle infrastructure in this city call into question the whole concept of engineering qualifications. It’s not at all clear to me that the so-called professionals can do a better job of laying out streets, roads, and pathways than I could.