"I suspect the reason is simply one of our cultural things. When that ped light goes on, peds walk, no thinking."
I think this is a bit of a disrespectful way to put it. I don't think it's possible to get around in a city in Ontario obeying signals without thinking and also without being struck by a car. You're also ignoring the experiences people have at four-way stops and the like, where they may have the right-of-way but it's not largely respected by motorists.
At a roundabout on foot, motorists are supposed to yield to you. Does that happen? I wouldn't count on it. So you're right that there's a lot of thinking involved, and it's life-or-death thinking, so of course it's uncomfortable.
(06-08-2017, 10:15 AM)MidTowner Wrote: [ -> ]"I suspect the reason is simply one of our cultural things. When that ped light goes on, peds walk, no thinking."
I think this is a bit of a disrespectful way to put it. I don't think it's possible to get around in a city in Ontario obeying signals without thinking and also without being struck by a car. You're also ignoring the experiences people have at four-way stops and the like, where they may have the right-of-way but it's not largely respected by motorists.
At a roundabout on foot, motorists are supposed to yield to you. Does that happen? I wouldn't count on it. So you're right that there's a lot of thinking involved, and it's life-or-death thinking, so of course it's uncomfortable.
I don't intend any disrespect, it is simply part of our culture. We prefer absolute rules, some places in Europe prefer this too, I'm sure places all over the world vary in this way. And of course, it is not an absolute, our culture is diverse, just look at this board where some get agitated when people walk through construction zones, and others are comfortable with it.
In general though, our culture prefers absolute rules, but absolute rules don't exactly apply at roundabouts. Four way stops are certainly different than roundabouts, cars are required to stop, nobody has to judge whether a car is physically able to stop for them when crossing a 4-way-stop, because its a stop sign--all vehicles are stopping regardless of the pedestrian's presence. At a roundabout that judgement is required, no matter who legally has the right of way, physics always has the right of way.
As for walking around obeying signals without thinking, you're right, people will get hit, and they do.....There should be thinking at signals as well, "does that left turning driver see me, or is that a cell phone in their hand"...but it's easy to not think about it, and then, that's when people do get hit. At roundabouts they're forced to think, and that's uncomfortable, but that doesn't make it inherently unsafe. I agree, that it being uncomfortable is a problem, but I think it's a mind shift that could be made.
I think a bigger problem is drivers failing to yield, which also increases the danger of actually being hit. Improving compliance of yielding would help.
My point is simply that I don't think roundabouts are so disastrous for pedestrians as many seem to feel. Very similar roundabouts function very well for pedestrians and cyclists in Europe.
I've been thinking for a while now about how sometimes measures we implement to improve safety may actually backfire and reduce it. As an example, I wonder if, for example, automatic headlights are part of the reason that so many people don't turn their headlights on in bad weather when they should; they never have to make the decision to turn on their lights due to the car automatically doing so, but when it is unable to make that decision for them, they no longer have the frame of mind to even consider that a decision should be made.
Similarly with looking for pedestrians and cyclists. So many intersections have clearly established rights-of-way and there are so few pedestrians and cyclists on the road, that it's not a consideration people typically ever have to make, and so we forget to think about it in those situations where we ought to.
(06-08-2017, 12:41 PM)jamincan Wrote: [ -> ]I've been thinking for a while now about how sometimes measures we implement to improve safety may actually backfire and reduce it. As an example, I wonder if, for example, automatic headlights are part of the reason that so many people don't turn their headlights on in bad weather when they should; they never have to make the decision to turn on their lights due to the car automatically doing so, but when it is unable to make that decision for them, they no longer have the frame of mind to even consider that a decision should be made.
Similarly with looking for pedestrians and cyclists. So many intersections have clearly established rights-of-way and there are so few pedestrians and cyclists on the road, that it's not a consideration people typically ever have to make, and so we forget to think about it in those situations where we ought to.
That is exactly the situation which resulted in me being hit last month.
Re automatic headlights though, my car definitely turned them on automatically in bad weather....maybe not all cars do. This type of problem has certainly has caused airplanes to crash though. It's a major concern with "not quite" self driving cars as well.
I went past the Krug St. closure today and you can still get through on the side walk under the bridge.
(06-08-2017, 12:41 PM)jamincan Wrote: [ -> ]I've been thinking for a while now about how sometimes measures we implement to improve safety may actually backfire and reduce it. As an example, I wonder if, for example, automatic headlights are part of the reason that so many people don't turn their headlights on in bad weather when they should; they never have to make the decision to turn on their lights due to the car automatically doing so, but when it is unable to make that decision for them, they no longer have the frame of mind to even consider that a decision should be made.
Similarly with looking for pedestrians and cyclists. So many intersections have clearly established rights-of-way and there are so few pedestrians and cyclists on the road, that it's not a consideration people typically ever have to make, and so we forget to think about it in those situations where we ought to.
There is a lot of truth to this.
For a long time both my car and my wife's had automatic headlights, controlled by a sensor. When I got my Toyota Yaris, it didn't have this feature, however, the interior lights all lit up at night (making me not think about it). I've been flashed before I realized, and a fellow Yaris owner pulled up beside me at a red light one time and honked... when I rolled down my window he said "Glad I'm not the only one... check your lights!"
When I replaced the Yaris, auto headlights were a must for my current car.
Coke
Auto headlights should probably be a required safety feature.
Headlight confusion is worst in rental cars. Daytime running lights make it not a complete disaster, but not good enough.
Lexington from around the expressway to Marsland is getting resurfaced. About time too, the entire section from Davenport to Weber was in terrible shape.
(06-10-2017, 12:24 AM)p2ee Wrote: [ -> ]Lexington from around the expressway to Marsland is getting resurfaced. About time too, the entire section from Davenport to Weber was in terrible shape.
Nice! I think it's to do with what was mentioned in the
Cycling Thread about how Lexington will carry a multi-use trail on the north side of the street to finally provide a bike link across the expressway.
(06-12-2017, 10:08 AM)chutten Wrote: [ -> ] (06-10-2017, 12:24 AM)p2ee Wrote: [ -> ]Lexington from around the expressway to Marsland is getting resurfaced. About time too, the entire section from Davenport to Weber was in terrible shape.
Nice! I think it's to do with what was mentioned in the Cycling Thread about how Lexington will carry a multi-use trail on the north side of the street to finally provide a bike link across the expressway.
Just over the highway....sadly.
I thought Lexington was going to get bike lanes, but I guess that was just wishful thinking.
(06-12-2017, 11:06 AM)timc Wrote: [ -> ]I thought Lexington was going to get bike lanes, but I guess that was just wishful thinking.
You'd be forgiven for thinking that. It's been on the cycling master plan for more than a decade. And it was proposed, but no, it's not getting lanes with this work. It's in the long term plan in 10-20 years. Yeah, don't get me started on that.
Speedsville Road over the 401 has re-opened.