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(01-18-2018, 07:50 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: [ -> ]Why is a 24/7 sidewalk clearing service so ridiculous an idea.  We do it for roads...which are an order of magnitude larger.  Yet we can't for sidewalks?

I think the problem is magnitude of injury.

Advocates always use the excuse "but cars are so dangerous because they're heavy, that's why I can break the rules when I walk or bike, because I'm light and won't hurt anyone or get hurt" - well, now that same argument explains exactly why it's important to keep the road clear.

People don't generally die if a little bit of snow is on the ground.  But people do if the roads aren't clear.
(01-18-2018, 09:01 PM)Canard Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2018, 07:50 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: [ -> ]Why is a 24/7 sidewalk clearing service so ridiculous an idea.  We do it for roads...which are an order of magnitude larger.  Yet we can't for sidewalks?

I think the problem is magnitude of injury.

Advocates always use the excuse "but cars are so dangerous because they're heavy, that's why I can break the rules when I walk or bike, because I'm light and won't hurt anyone or get hurt" - well, now that same argument explains exactly why it's important to keep the road clear.

People don't generally die if a little bit of snow is on the ground.  But people do if the roads aren't clear.

I'd argue the magnitude of the injury is the same when sidewalks aren't clear.  Most seriously, people are trapped in their homes, that's an inconceivably bad outcome for many people in our society.  Those who do go out face dangers as well, some are forced to walk on roads.  We've already had one person hit (and subsequently charged) for walking on the road this year, who knows if he was forced onto the road by an uncleared sidewalk, neither the media, nor the police seem to have asked that question.

And icy uncleared sidewalks aren't safe for able bodied people either.  Alberta, where sidewalks usually aren't cleared, sees triple the rates of injury from slips and falls as Ontario.  http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/al...-1.4460651

And as for clearing, you're right, main roads need to be cleared for safety, residential streets, not so much, nobody's getting killed there, they're just forced to go very slowly and occasionally getting stuck.  When the city does a full plow of my street, I'm always disappointed because traffic speeds go from 30-35 km/h back up to 50-55 km/h.

I'm sure that many people believe the point you make, but I don't believe the data backs it up.

But even if it was, it doesn't negate the fact that mobility is a human right, and failing to clear sidewalks is a violation of that right.


And I'm sure you aren't meaning it this way, but that reasoning moves towards the "us vs. them" rhetoric which is so destructive.  Nobody who is arguing for sidewalk clearing is suggesting we don't clear roads (Except for my street Tongue).

We're a wealthy society, and a wealthy city, plenty of other cities manage it, there's simply no excuse for not clearing sidewalks and also roads.  It frustrates me when city councillors like mine argue that it would be near-impossible.  We already clear roads, sidewalks are small beans by land area.

And certainly there is no economic argument for not doing so.  Our current policy is nearly pessimal.  It costs us the most, that is, everyone's labor (or what they pay for other's labor) costs us the maximum amount, because there is no benefit of scale, everyone does one short section of sidewalk.  For the minimum benefit, which is most sidewalks are still blocked with snow.  Municipal clearing would almost certainly save money.
(01-18-2018, 07:50 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2018, 07:39 PM)embe Wrote: [ -> ]Trying to get my head around the expectation for plowing snow off the sidewalks and how it would be much different than what's currently being done at the bus stops (that a lot of people are speaking negatively about).  

Are the proponents envisioning a 24/7 sidewalk clearing service that scrapes right to the concrete and does multiple passes a day to keep it clear?  I'll tell you now that's not gonna happen.  

I'd actually picture it being worse, since most people would no longer bother clearing their sidewalks, since hey, the sidewalk plow (that we're all paying for) will be coming by... eventually....

Why is a 24/7 sidewalk clearing service so ridiculous an idea.  We do it for roads...which are an order of magnitude larger.  Yet we can't for sidewalks?

Also, all the data shows that the current situation is entirely broken, you cannot walk a substantial distance without encountering a blocked sidewalk, but every road in the city is clear.

This idea that just because a few sidewalks are immaculate, that sidewalk clearing is good must end.  Sidewalks are used for more than just running to your neighbours house.

And what's being done at bus stops is a choice, to hold them to a very low standard.

I didn't say it was ridiculous, just trying to understand what the expectation is of the service.  It is however, hyperbole to say the roads are "clear".  Sure they've been plowed, but as of today (a few day after significant snow) there are still some streets that are marginal.  If the sidewalks were plowed with the same attention to detail, similar method, similar results, a lot of people using sidewalks (kids, elderly, physically impaired, able bodied, etc.) might still have difficulty. 

I've been in communities where the sidewalk plowing is done.  Reality is some people who had previously shoveled their sidewalk (as soon as possible), just stopped doing it since "the plow will be coming by eventually".
(01-18-2018, 10:23 PM)embe Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2018, 07:50 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: [ -> ]Why is a 24/7 sidewalk clearing service so ridiculous an idea.  We do it for roads...which are an order of magnitude larger.  Yet we can't for sidewalks?

Also, all the data shows that the current situation is entirely broken, you cannot walk a substantial distance without encountering a blocked sidewalk, but every road in the city is clear.

This idea that just because a few sidewalks are immaculate, that sidewalk clearing is good must end.  Sidewalks are used for more than just running to your neighbours house.

And what's being done at bus stops is a choice, to hold them to a very low standard.

I didn't say it was ridiculous, just trying to understand what the expectation is of the service.  It is however, hyperbole to say the roads are "clear".  Sure they've been plowed, but as of today (a few day after significant snow) there are still some streets that are marginal.  If the sidewalks were plowed with the same attention to detail, similar method, similar results, a lot of people using sidewalks (kids, elderly, physically impaired, able bodied, etc.) might still have difficulty. 

I've been in communities where the sidewalk plowing is done.  Reality is some people who had previously shoveled their sidewalk (as soon as possible), just stopped doing it since "the plow will be coming by eventually".

I know of no roads which are "marginal" right now, perhaps some cul-de-sacs around town are, but the one near me is bare pavement.  Also, if you look at the sidewalks that the city already clears, most are actually very good, better than many homeowners, the only exceptions are where the pavement is particularly poor, like that the railway tracks near my house.

So yes, it is possible that some sidewalks wouldn't be perfect, and this may be difficult for people who have mobility problems, but it would impede them far less than the every 10th or every 20th house that is completely uncleared.  Remember, it does not matter how the best sidewalks are, it only matters what the weakest links are.

I have also lived in a city with sidewalk clearing, and yes, people (including me) complained about the quality of the clearing.  That being said, those complaints were about day of, or day after clearing, by a few days past a storm, plows would have cleared all sidewalks (to the degree that they are passable), even ones which didn't get cleared well enough on the first pass.  This is a state we NEVER reach in our system.

I honestly do not care if people stop shovelling their sidewalks, I don't even see a reason for them to do so, it's a waste of effort.  It's a minor convenience that every fifth home on my street is cleared the morning of a storm, the real problem is when I get to the main road, and still only ever fifth property is clear.  The fact is, even immediately after a snowfall things would be substantially better.  Walking to work, the day of a snowfall, even main roads have mostly uncleared sidewalks, but city street plows have been out.  If we had sidewalks held to the same standards, major roads and bus routes would be clear almost immediately during a storm.

This is opposed to now, which is a system with no priority, a road like Columbia where thousands of students walk to school doesn't see most sidewalks cleared until the evening (at best, some homes on that street never ever clear their sidewalks).  Worse, that road has a curbface sidewalk, which often gets covered back up by the plow (and then stays covered indefinitely again).  Having the city do it would allow synchronization between road plows and sidewalk plows.
Right here in Waterloo Region we have an example of municipal sidewalk plowing. And it appears to work satisfactorily.

Woolwich Township hires a private contractor on a multi year basis to clear the sidewalks in a few communities, including what I believe is the majority of Elmira. I'm not clear on the full extent of the contract, nor privy to the terms therein.

The Township then recovers the cost from the beneficiaries through a separate line item on the property taxes. I think there's some multi year averaging applied. For my home on a garden variety suburban lot I think it's like $60 per year.

The level of service is pretty good. The walks are kept clear enough that folks can walk their dogs, get the mail from the community box, kids can walk to school, and so on. The response during recent snow events has been good. I can hear the plows rattling around the neighborhood early in the morning.

Service complaints are directed to the Township. I've seen comments from Township representatives in the local paper indicating satisfaction with the current contractor, who is performing better than the previous contractor.

I'm happy with the arrangement, it costs me little, I don't have to clear the sidewalk before I go to work in the morning and the uniform decent condition around the neighborhood is a community good.
We have an example in Downtown Kitchener, as well. Many mornings this winter, on my walk to work from the Charles St Terminal to Duke and Wellington, I've passed city workers clearing snow with skid steers, laying out salt, clearing out corners with shovels, etc.

The point where that responsibility is no longer born by the city is notable. Along Duke between Francis and Victoria the sidewalks haven't been completely clear until this week. Even the thaw we had earlier this month didn't completely clear out the completely neglected sidewalks.

The core business association area is extremely accessible as a result, and it's a great example of one high priority area receiving high quality service.
(01-23-2018, 01:11 PM)robdrimmie Wrote: [ -> ]We have an example in Downtown Kitchener, as well. Many mornings this winter, on my walk to work from the Charles St Terminal to Duke and Wellington, I've passed city workers clearing snow with skid steers, laying out salt, clearing out corners with shovels, etc.

The point where that responsibility is no longer born by the city is notable. Along Duke between Francis and Victoria the sidewalks haven't been completely clear until this week. Even the thaw we had earlier this month didn't completely clear out the completely neglected sidewalks.

The core business association area is extremely accessible as a result, and it's a great example of one high priority area receiving high quality service.

The emphasis on this is that the high-quality service is received by high-priority areas. Lower-priority areas, like the sidewalks adjacent to and the paths crossing within some parkland near my house do not receive such excellent care, sadly. It's not terrible, they're usually done within 36 hours, but it's rare that walking my kid to school in the morning following a snow fall doesn't involve a fair amount of trudging.

Again, how much would it cost to provide the high-quality service to all areas, I wonder. (And why aren't property taxes progressive. Tax me more, dagnabbit. I want to live in a socialist paradise. Our train stations should be palaces of architecture and technology, our schools doubly so. And our sidewalks should bloody well be ploughed. (pardon my grump))
So, at the very least, in Sweden, the transportation minister claims the opposite is actually true, that clearing paths first keeps more people safe.  

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/gender-a...-1.4494640

Of course, that's Sweden, which has *less* car dependence than we do.
https://www.therecord.com/opinion-story/...lk-utopia/

https://www.therecord.com/opinion-story/...te-jan-24/

These two letters to the editor are first of all, quite wrong. I know people in Guelph, who live on residential streets. They see plowing in the normal timeframe for street plowing. I also hear people in KW complain about their streets not being plowed for days, they're simply wrong. Residential streets are plowed, they just aren't black because they have less traffic.

But the most revealing thing is that they talk about plowing main roads and bus routes first as a bad thing. This just shows that these people DO NOT WALK. Or, the don't walk places. They might walk to their neighbours...or up the street, but they don't walk anywhere as a mode of transportation. If they walked places, they would know that plowing main streets and bus routes (where more people walk) is an important and logical thing to do, and that these sidewalks are not clear, not now, not in 3 days, not until the next melt will they be clear.

This is the same as when recreational cyclists suggest that there's no problem biking in the city because they tool around their neighbourhood and parks without going anywhere and it's perfectly pleasant.
From the first letter:

“A possible solution to the current set of property owners that do not shovel would be to give them 24 hours to shovel and after that time frame open the shovelling up to private contractors. The contractors could bill the city and the bill added to the homeowner. That should clear up any delinquency pretty fast.”

From the second: “The best way to solve this problem is to fine the owners who don't clear their walks in 24 hours.”

I think these assertions would fall apart when they ran into political reality. The number of property owners who do not clear their sidewalks is huge, and even a minority of them complaining when fined would constitute a significant backlash in the minds of the councillors receiving those complaints.

If the city had the nerve to do as the first writer suggested, I do think that could work. Theoretically, that’s what’s done now, but the problems are that it’s complaint-driven, and the clock resets after each snowfall. There’s a stigma against complaining and, even if there weren’t, some people won’t know how to; and the way snows fall and the 24-hour-clock resets, there can be periods of weeks during some seasons when property owners are not offside of the bylaw, though their sidewalks are never clear.
“recreational cyclists” Statements like this make me so angry!
I thought it was a pretty good example to illustrate perception of sidewalks. I have neighbours who don’t walk anywhere. They do walk but, as danbrotherston said, not to destinations, but rather for recreation or exercise. If the weather’s not good, they stay in; if they know one street’s sidewalks are chronically messy, they take the dog the other way.

So, for them, the sidewalks seem good enough because they’ve never experienced a trip to the store for an ingredient for dinner (or whatever example you want to think of).

It’s not denigrating those people to compare them to recreational cyclists, who likewise might think the infrastructure is just fine, but don’t realize they have a blind spot since they can choose where to bike, since they’re not biking for transportation.
(01-31-2018, 09:41 AM)creative Wrote: [ -> ]“recreational cyclists” Statements like this make me so angry!

I'm sorry it angers you, that was not my intent.

People who do an activity for recreation instead of, in both these cases, transportation, necessarily experience the infrastructure differently.  It is also no surprise that the infrastructure for recreation is much more functional than for transportation, as that's what has been built almost exclusively for decades.  It's also pretty reasonable to point out how people in general believe their experiences are far more representative than they are.  We all suffer from this.

There's nothing wrong with recreational cycling, or walking, I do it much of the time, but it is frustrating when people who do those things, argue against better infrastructure because they believe their experiences are representative.

I intend no offense.
Re Ottawa, the letter's comment about students having to walk in the street is an exageration (I'm sure it happens, but it's not a regular feature of winter life in Ottawa), at least from what I've seen. The City-cleared sidewalks, however, are not great. Not only wrt how long it takes to clear them, but their condition after "clearing". I've noticed as well that, outside the core, no effort seems to be made to clear snow from bicycle lanes in the roadway, beyond the standard periodic removal of accumulated snow along the sides of roads.
(01-31-2018, 10:45 AM)panamaniac Wrote: [ -> ]Re Ottawa, the letter's comment about students having to walk in the street is an exageration (I'm sure it happens, but it's not a regular feature of winter life in Ottawa), at least from what I've seen.  The City-cleared sidewalks, however, are not great.  Not only wrt how long it takes to clear them, but their condition after "clearing".  I've noticed as well that, outside the core, no effort seems to be made to clear snow from bicycle lanes in the roadway, beyond the standard periodic removal of accumulated snow along the sides of roads.

This is definitely the case.

And this is in spite of the fact that I saw literally a dozen (not like 12, but actually 12) cyclist on my walk to work this morning.  I don't usually see so many, but it's plainly clear that people will bike in the winter, if they are enabled to do so.