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(06-26-2018, 01:32 AM)tomh009 Wrote: [ -> ]Sigh. I'm pleased that the mayor is trying to do the right thing but is very disappointing that the councilors are not even willing to study the options.

Yes, although Sarah Marsh and Gazola deserve credit, Sarah Marsh especially spoke passionately for it.


At this point, if I was in the zone selected for the "enforcement" study, I would ensure that I did exactly what the bylaw requires and nothing more.  This would mean leaving sidewalks uncleared for more than a week at a time.


Frankly, the only reason these folks (citizens, not Councillors who should bloody well know better) believe the bylaw works is because the average propertyowner exceeds the bylaw requirements by a huge margin.
Sadly, I suspect the only way things will change is if the cities get slammed with a hefty lawsuit such that the cost of *not* proactively addressing the problem becomes apparent. I suspect the current snow-clearing policies, or at least the failure to aggressively enforce those policies, would be found to violate the Charter.
(06-26-2018, 07:03 AM)jamincan Wrote: [ -> ]Sadly, I suspect the only way things will change is if the cities get slammed with a hefty lawsuit such that the cost of *not* proactively addressing the problem becomes apparent. I suspect the current snow-clearing policies, or at least the failure to aggressively enforce those policies, would be found to violate the Charter.

And/or the AODA. This is very disappointing. Yet again, the obviously correct choice has to be pushed down the road another few months or years.
(06-26-2018, 08:14 AM)ijmorlan Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-26-2018, 07:03 AM)jamincan Wrote: [ -> ]Sadly, I suspect the only way things will change is if the cities get slammed with a hefty lawsuit such that the cost of *not* proactively addressing the problem becomes apparent. I suspect the current snow-clearing policies, or at least the failure to aggressively enforce those policies, would be found to violate the Charter.

And/or the AODA. This is very disappointing. Yet again, the obviously correct choice has to be pushed down the road another few months or years.

A full year, deferred till 2019, and frankly.  And this comes from a councillor who protested repeatedly that she wanted the best sidewalk clearing.

The current snow clearing policies are 100% broken.

I analyzed the snowfall data from 2018, in only three and a half months, there were 8 instances where bylaw required zero snow clearing for at least 5 days in a row, and several instances where it was more than 8 days in a row.

That's with 100% enforcement.  If homeowners are willing to risk a warning, we have multiple strings of no snow clearing of over 11 days.

Bylaw is 100% useless here.  I wish we'd stop pretending like it did anything...

The election is in October, I sure wish it was in January...of course, many of those who would object to this policy would have trouble getting to the polls...
The silent majority, who clear their sidewalks promptly, are against the city clearing sidewalks. They are not against clear sidewalks. Don't give up on the issue entirely because your solution was not chosen. Direct your energy at amendments to the law and better enforcement.
(06-26-2018, 09:53 AM)creative Wrote: [ -> ]The silent majority, who clear their sidewalks promptly, are against the city clearing sidewalks. They are not against clear sidewalks. Don't give up on the issue entirely because your solution was not chosen. Direct your energy at amendments to the law and better enforcement.


I'm sick and tired of hearing about "the silent majority"...they weren't silent, they successfully lobbied council to see their interests, virtually every time.

The silent ones are those who are trapped in their house all winter.

I don't care whatsoever about people who clear their sidewalks promptly.  I am a person who does that.  It does not matter one bit, those who don't are the problem, and I've already explained how bylaw has no ability to force them to clear snow promptly.  So how will bylaw enforcement help.

I'm not sure who said it because frankly, it was 1:30 in the morning, but every god damn year we go back to Council with this problem and NOBODY LISTENS.

The "not so silent majority" is far more concerned with saving a few bucks than they are about the fundamental right of people to walk out their front door safely, and they get heard every time.
(06-26-2018, 09:53 AM)creative Wrote: [ -> ]The silent majority, who clear their sidewalks promptly, are against the city clearing sidewalks. They are not against clear sidewalks. Don't give up on the issue entirely because your solution was not chosen. Direct your energy at amendments to the law and better enforcement.

I assume you have evidence for that rather questionable conclusion? When I see the phrase “silent majority” I suspect I’m about to read some fiction. What about all the people who consider it their duty to clear their sidewalk since the City doesn’t, but would rather the City took over the job? And what is different about roads and sidewalks anyway that justifies the City clearing one but not the other, even though the one they do clear is much more expensive for them to clear than the one they don’t would be?
Please reread my post before you jump all over me. I said "Focus your energy on changing the law and improving the enforcement". Those that clear their sidewalks are not the villan. Those that choose to not do so should suffer the pain of not doing so.
It does seem that the bylaw and its enforcement could both be made more stringent, from the comments I've seen in this thread.
(06-26-2018, 10:24 AM)creative Wrote: [ -> ]Please reread my post before you jump all over me. I said "Focus your energy on changing the law and improving the enforcement". Those that clear their sidewalks are not the villan. Those that choose to not do so should suffer the pain of not doing so.

ijmorlan points out, many property owners who do clear their sidewalks (like myself) are in support of city clearing, we prefer it if you don't speak for us.

I've already focused my effort, and staff has focused their effort, on evaluating how to improve the situation, council has voted that down.  You still haven't explained how we are supposed to keep the sidewalks clear under the current bylaw...you suggest I should focus my effort there, why is that my job, YOU should be the one to provide a reasonable explanation of how to implement YOUR solution.  To do otherwise is to show that you don't care about the plight of those in our society who cannot get around in winter.

Also remember, this vote was not about sidewalk clearing, it was about evaluating how sidewalk clearing would work.  If enforcement really was the best policy, then that would be proven by this, but we aren't even going to try now.

At the end of the day, it is those who are least able in our society who suffer the most pain of uncleared sidewalks, and frankly, it is all of our community that suffers the pain of people like me who will now drive a car in the winter, or frankly, leave our community, because of this issue.

In fact, it is those who don't clear their sidewalks reliably who benefit the most from this policy--because they continue to be able to do very little work clearing their sidewalks, while paying none of the costs.
Okay, since people don't want to have the city clear sidewalks, this is what I propose for tighter standards that are a reasonable compromise between home owners and pedestrians:

- people have 18 hours to clear sidewalk once snow has accumulated 1 inch, or after snow has stopped, whichever comes first.
- no grace period; properties failing to meet that standard will have city plows clear their sidewalk for them and be billed for the full cost of clearing the snow

Do you think residents will stand for that, because that's what I think it would take.
(06-26-2018, 10:44 AM)jamincan Wrote: [ -> ]Okay, since people don't want to have the city clear sidewalks, this is what I propose for tighter standards that are a reasonable compromise between home owners and pedestrians:

- people have 18 hours to clear sidewalk once snow has accumulated 1 inch, or after snow has stopped, whichever comes first.
- no grace period; properties failing to meet that standard will have city plows clear their sidewalk for them and be billed for the full cost of clearing the snow

Do you think residents will stand for that, because that's what I think it would take.

Lol, given that we can have one inch of snow in an hour, I like this policy, no property owner can meet that standard and keep a full time job.

At this point, the city can save lots of money by billing virtually every property for snow clearing while enjoying the savings of clearing all the properties at once with a single plow.
This news is so frustrating. What is so bad about testing out different options and seeing which one is best? I do my best to clear the snow in front of my house promptly, but it only takes a few people that don't to ruin it for people with mobility issues (or even just a stroller). Another big issue is the snowbanks at intersections -- I don't think anything in the current bylaw requires those to be cleared by anyone, which can be a huge obstacle.

(06-26-2018, 10:44 AM)jamincan Wrote: [ -> ]Okay, since people don't want to have the city clear sidewalks, this is what I propose for tighter standards that are a reasonable compromise between home owners and pedestrians:

- people have 18 hours to clear sidewalk once snow has accumulated 1 inch, or after snow has stopped, whichever comes first.
- no grace period; properties failing to meet that standard will have city plows clear their sidewalk for them and be billed for the full cost of clearing the snow

Do you think residents will stand for that, because that's what I think it would take.

That would certainly be better than what we have now. Although I honestly wonder how much that would cost in comparison to just having the city do all the sidewalks. $26 per year is really not that much money to make our community a nicer place for half the year.
(06-26-2018, 10:54 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-26-2018, 10:44 AM)jamincan Wrote: [ -> ]Okay, since people don't want to have the city clear sidewalks, this is what I propose for tighter standards that are a reasonable compromise between home owners and pedestrians:

- people have 18 hours to clear sidewalk once snow has accumulated 1 inch, or after snow has stopped, whichever comes first.
- no grace period; properties failing to meet that standard will have city plows clear their sidewalk for them and be billed for the full cost of clearing the snow

Do you think residents will stand for that, because that's what I think it would take.

Lol, given that we can have one inch of snow in an hour, I like this policy, no property owner can meet that standard and keep a full time job.

At this point, the city can save lots of money by billing virtually every property for snow clearing while enjoying the savings of clearing all the properties at once with a single plow.

I think you misunderstood me. The first rule would be that once 1 inch of snow has accumulated on the ground, you have 18 hours to clear it. This means that if there's heavy snowfall, you don't have to keep clearing it to below 1 inch, simply that once 1 inch has accumulated, you have 18 hours to deal with it. If another inch accumulates after you do so, you have another 18 hours to deal with it. This means in periods of heavy snowfall, home owners have to continuously deal with the snow accumulation, they can't just wait for it to finish a week later and then clear it.

On the other hand, if it only snows a small amount, you can't just ignore it if it's less than one inch accumulation. You have to go and clear it before it freezes into a solid mass. Hence, the 18 hours after it stops snowing.

Frankly, I think a lot of people have good intentions and are responsible most of the time, and that the above rules wouldn't be onerous for them to meet, but what about when they go away for Christmas or holidays? How many are making arrangements to have their sidewalk cleared? Some people just don't care, and they're a problem too, but a lot of people probably don't even consider sidewalk clearing when they're away. If they were faced with a $1000+ bill for snow clearing when they return from their week-long vacation, they would probably be a lot more vigilant in the future, or just pay the damn tax.
(06-26-2018, 11:28 AM)jamincan Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-26-2018, 10:54 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: [ -> ]Lol, given that we can have one inch of snow in an hour, I like this policy, no property owner can meet that standard and keep a full time job.

At this point, the city can save lots of money by billing virtually every property for snow clearing while enjoying the savings of clearing all the properties at once with a single plow.

I think you misunderstood me. The first rule would be that once 1 inch of snow has accumulated on the ground, you have 18 hours to clear it. This means that if there's heavy snowfall, you don't have to keep clearing it to below 1 inch, simply that once 1 inch has accumulated, you have 18 hours to deal with it. If another inch accumulates after you do so, you have another 18 hours to deal with it. This means in periods of heavy snowfall, home owners have to continuously deal with the snow accumulation, they can't just wait for it to finish a week later and then clear it.

On the other hand, if it only snows a small amount, you can't just ignore it if it's less than one inch accumulation. You have to go and clear it before it freezes into a solid mass. Hence, the 18 hours after it stops snowing.

Frankly, I think a lot of people have good intentions and are responsible most of the time, and that the above rules wouldn't be onerous for them to meet, but what about when they go away for Christmas or holidays? How many are making arrangements to have their sidewalk cleared? Some people just don't care, and they're a problem too, but a lot of people probably don't even consider sidewalk clearing when they're away. If they were faced with a $1000+ bill for snow clearing when they return from their week-long vacation, they would probably be a lot more vigilant in the future, or just pay the damn tax.

You're right,  I did misunderstand, my mistake.  

I have no doubt that most people have good intentions in clearing their sidewalk.  They even have good intentions in believing that bylaw enforcement can solve this.  But I feel they lose those good intentions when they refuse to acknowledge the real problems with bylaw enforcement when explained, as I did at council last night.

And you're right that this would probably be a useful bylaw, and if enforced with an iron fist, maybe even an effective one.

But it's also not one that would ever be implemented.  If I've learned anything this year, it's that council is somehow terrified of people who have broken a bylaw that they had every opportunity to know about, gotten a ticket, and are now angry about it.