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(02-07-2019, 10:22 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-07-2019, 08:55 PM)jamincan Wrote: [ -> ]As much as I disagree with Davey on this issue, you have to give him credit for having a dialogue about it.

No I don't, and frankly, I've blocked him at this point.

Or more specifically, I disagree that he's having a dialog, he's not listening to issues, or evaluating facts, he's trying to justify himself, nothing more.

Choosing to block someone based on their respectful opposing views is quite telling.

Some of us engage those with differing views to refine their perspective... like me on this thread for example.
(02-16-2019, 03:38 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-16-2019, 02:58 PM)clasher Wrote: [ -> ]"data-driven discussion"!? Did he vote in favour or against the big study that was proposed and then cancelled?

He absolutely voted against it.

Thanks for the clarification. Somebody must have hacked into his Twitter account, because it is currently claiming that he said “Can't wait to begin a data-driven discussion as soon as my account is approved”, which makes it sound like he wants a data-driven discussion, which turns out not to be the case.

https://twitter.com/Scott__Davey/status/...1469004800
(02-02-2019, 09:43 AM)ijmorlan Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-01-2019, 06:40 PM)Canard Wrote: [ -> ]The bit that confuses me is they're all "DONT EVER USE SALT!!!!!!!!!! SALT KILLS UNBORN BABIES AND KITTENS!!!!!!!!!111" and then you see this:

Hey, where is that, I need to pick up some salt for my driveway!

(I know where it is, just funny to think that enough salt to supply my house for a season is probably dumped like that in each of many locations every time there is a large snowfall)

More seriously, you’ve located another example of bad-faith argumentation. Those people don’t really care about salt; if they did they would bring it up as a separate issue applying to all snow clearing, not as a “but, but, but…” with respect to City clearing of sidewalks. It’s like people who say “shouldn’t we consider Hyperloop?” when an LRT project is about to begin construction — usually they don’t really want Hyperloop, which doesn’t actually exist now anyway, they just want to stop the LRT project. And I’m sure there are other examples.

Or maybe you don't know me.  Maybe I do care a LOT about salt use, water quality, and habitat protection.  Maybe I engaged staff and a close friend in water-protection to understand the implications of hundreds of tons more salt in our community.  Maybe I've engaged staff on ALL salt use and you just aren't aware of it.  But hey... I'm a politician.  An easy target to slam and get lols from your bros.  Surely I'm not some guy researching and doing the best I can to make the best possible decision.  Keep throwing out "bad faith" and saying I "don't really care"  that's why I'm here writing this on a Saturday night on long weekend...
(02-14-2019, 02:26 PM)MidTowner Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-14-2019, 11:32 AM)Spokes Wrote: [ -> ]I think it's just further showing that this bylaw is broken

It is. The bylaw is clear in the standards it imposes on property owners. Very few property owners are in compliance with it for any length of time during the winter. Those are not the standards the municipal government would set for itself if it didn't delegate the work.

This is correct and we will fix it.  The notices to those that made a legitimate effort was an unintended consequence.  Bare pavement is service level the city/region cannot achieve in many cases and should not be applied to residents IMO.  Something like "Safely/Accessibly traversable" makes more sense than "bare pavement" and gives bylaw the discretion they should have.
(02-15-2019, 11:13 AM)clasher Wrote: [ -> ]The labour costs to have proper enforcement would probably be similar to just paying people to clear the sidewalks. There's still sidewalks on my street that are iced over from last week FFS.

(02-16-2019, 03:52 PM)Canard Wrote: [ -> ]I told them the shovels with google-eyes were creepy and he said I’d made someone feel bad who worked on it.

yeah... it was mean.
(02-16-2019, 03:38 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-16-2019, 02:58 PM)clasher Wrote: [ -> ]"data-driven discussion"!? Did he vote in favour or against the big study that was proposed and then cancelled?

He absolutely voted against it.

Yeah, if he's interested in a data driven decision, he has a funny way of showing it.

Yes.  I voted against a 'pilot' project that would measure the satisfaction of residents in a set-area for full winter-maintenance.  A 'pilot' that would be devoid of tax implications, and one that cost ~$700,000 for a small area that we hadn't budgeted for.  So here's the thing, pilot projects are great for an idea that's never been tried/tested.  This hasn't only been tried, but it's been in full force for years in nearby municipalities.  A 'pilot' here was redundant and wasteful.  We know the approximate costs, we know the level of service, and we even know the general satisfaction level from residents of cities that offer this service.
(02-16-2019, 08:08 PM)jeffster Wrote: [ -> ]Found this from Mr. Davey interesting: "or punish the good stewards of our city with higher taxation for the sake of the uncompassionate few who fail to do their civic duty."

1) Many people in this city are OLD! When we have rain, snow, ice pellets, freezing rain, etc, falling on our sidewalks, making these area's passable in a timely and regular fashion, is very difficult. It's hard enough for the able bodied to keep on top of this -- especially without the help of -- gasp -- salt, let alone those with disabilities, or the aged. Calling them "uncompassionate" is just wrong. Or perhaps Mr. Davey doesn't know what the definition of compassion is. Perhaps he needs to do research on what compassion is. I get that he did mention this in his editorial, but he's not understanding how widespread the problem is with people who simply are unable to handle this issue.

2) We're not 'punishing' 'good stewards' of 'our city' with 'high taxation' for the sake of those that are apparently 'uncompassionate'.  What we're trying to do is create a safe passage for anyone that walks, cycles (I am fine with this), parents with strollers, and those on mobility scooters to travel safely and consistently.

3) No matter where you go in this city, there are huge chucks of sidewalks that haven't been cleared. This alleged 'few who fail to do their civic duty', is actually a huge number of people that either don't, or can't, do that 'civic duty'. What happens when we have out-of-town landlords that simply can't make it into the city safely due to the weather? Leave it up to the tenants to clear the ice and snow?

The only person I see here that is devoid of compassion is Mr. Davey.

What I do see is the city not wanting this responsibility, not because of a 3.5% hike in property taxes (and city portion only, excludes regional portion), but because of the concern of any lawsuits that might come about for failing to do this job in a timely fashion.

For what it's worth, I live in a section of Kitchener across from a forest. We're totally in-town, but no sidewalks. I don't use sidewalks as I drive everywhere, especially since they took away our GRT route away when the LRT was approved. But I am still okay with the property tax hike because it will help out a lot of people.

However, Mr. Davey is right at one point -- there is no 100% perfect solution. No matter how hard the city tries, no matter how hard home owners try, and no matter how hard they try to help each other, there are always going to be times where sidewalks are not walkable, just like the roads are not clear of snow.
 
Yeah so not sure how to respond except to say I wrote the below paragraph literally just before the cherry-picked quote above that questions my compassion.  Sigh... c'mon man.

"I am not ignorant of the challenges of those who have trouble getting around our city. I fully agree that we must work toward better support services for those otherwise unable to clear their sidewalk, like many seniors and people with disabilities, but for the rest of us, cleaning sidewalks is a duty of home ownership."


Proof:
https://www.therecord.com/opinion-story/...-bad-idea/
Well, I was hoping for a bit of a discussion this evening but I'm off for tonight as my posts apparently take more than an hour to be "approved by a moderator".

Why not post first and review later like everywhere else?
(02-16-2019, 11:05 PM)the_councillor Wrote: [ -> ]Well, I was hoping for a bit of a discussion this evening but I'm off for tonight as my posts apparently take more than an hour to be "approved by a moderator".

Why not post first and review later like everywhere else?

As a non-profit site, we are all volunteers, and unfortunately none of the mods were online earlier this evening. 


FYI: New members' posts are initially moderated to enable us manage the spam levels, not to block discussion.
(02-16-2019, 09:17 PM)the_councillor Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-15-2019, 11:13 AM)clasher Wrote: [ -> ]The labour costs to have proper enforcement would probably be similar to just paying people to clear the sidewalks. There's still sidewalks on my street that are iced over from last week FFS.

(02-16-2019, 03:52 PM)Canard Wrote: [ -> ]I told them the shovels with google-eyes were creepy and he said I’d made someone feel bad who worked on it.

yeah... it was mean.

[Image: VzTMNED.jpg]
(02-16-2019, 11:32 PM)tomh009 Wrote: [ -> ]As a non-profit site, we are all volunteers, and unfortunately none of the mods were online earlier this evening. 


FYI: New members' posts are initially moderated to enable us manage the spam levels, not to block discussion.

Ahhh... so I shouldn't wait long going forward?  That's better, Thanks!
(02-16-2019, 08:48 PM)the_councillor Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-07-2019, 10:22 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: [ -> ]No I don't, and frankly, I've blocked him at this point.

Or more specifically, I disagree that he's having a dialog, he's not listening to issues, or evaluating facts, he's trying to justify himself, nothing more.

Choosing to block someone based on their respectful opposing views is quite telling.

Some of us engage those with differing views to refine their perspective... like me on this thread for example.

Frankly, I blocked you, because I felt no good would come from the discussion I was having.  I found your continual dismissal of the points I was making frustrating to say the least, continually accusing me of cherry picking data, and since I wasn't likely to be polite about it, so as my mother taught me, if I have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all.

But no no, by all means, make assumptions about how telling it is of my character or whatever.
(02-16-2019, 09:04 PM)the_councillor Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-02-2019, 09:43 AM)ijmorlan Wrote: [ -> ]Hey, where is that, I need to pick up some salt for my driveway!

(I know where it is, just funny to think that enough salt to supply my house for a season is probably dumped like that in each of many locations every time there is a large snowfall)

More seriously, you’ve located another example of bad-faith argumentation. Those people don’t really care about salt; if they did they would bring it up as a separate issue applying to all snow clearing, not as a “but, but, but…” with respect to City clearing of sidewalks. It’s like people who say “shouldn’t we consider Hyperloop?” when an LRT project is about to begin construction — usually they don’t really want Hyperloop, which doesn’t actually exist now anyway, they just want to stop the LRT project. And I’m sure there are other examples.

Or maybe you don't know me.  Maybe I do care a LOT about salt use, water quality, and habitat protection.  Maybe I engaged staff and a close friend in water-protection to understand the implications of hundreds of tons more salt in our community.  Maybe I've engaged staff on ALL salt use and you just aren't aware of it.  But hey... I'm a politician.  An easy target to slam and get lols from your bros.  Surely I'm not some guy researching and doing the best I can to make the best possible decision.  Keep throwing out "bad faith" and saying I "don't really care"  that's why I'm here writing this on a Saturday night on long weekend...

If you care about water quality, habitat protection, and salt use, we should do everything we can to ensure we develop a dense walkable urban environment...forcing people to own cars because sidewalks are blocked all winter is very contrary to that.
(02-16-2019, 09:35 PM)the_councillor Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-16-2019, 08:08 PM)jeffster Wrote: [ -> ]Found this from Mr. Davey interesting: "or punish the good stewards of our city with higher taxation for the sake of the uncompassionate few who fail to do their civic duty."

1) Many people in this city are OLD! When we have rain, snow, ice pellets, freezing rain, etc, falling on our sidewalks, making these area's passable in a timely and regular fashion, is very difficult. It's hard enough for the able bodied to keep on top of this -- especially without the help of -- gasp -- salt, let alone those with disabilities, or the aged. Calling them "uncompassionate" is just wrong. Or perhaps Mr. Davey doesn't know what the definition of compassion is. Perhaps he needs to do research on what compassion is. I get that he did mention this in his editorial, but he's not understanding how widespread the problem is with people who simply are unable to handle this issue.

2) We're not 'punishing' 'good stewards' of 'our city' with 'high taxation' for the sake of those that are apparently 'uncompassionate'.  What we're trying to do is create a safe passage for anyone that walks, cycles (I am fine with this), parents with strollers, and those on mobility scooters to travel safely and consistently.

3) No matter where you go in this city, there are huge chucks of sidewalks that haven't been cleared. This alleged 'few who fail to do their civic duty', is actually a huge number of people that either don't, or can't, do that 'civic duty'. What happens when we have out-of-town landlords that simply can't make it into the city safely due to the weather? Leave it up to the tenants to clear the ice and snow?

The only person I see here that is devoid of compassion is Mr. Davey.

What I do see is the city not wanting this responsibility, not because of a 3.5% hike in property taxes (and city portion only, excludes regional portion), but because of the concern of any lawsuits that might come about for failing to do this job in a timely fashion.

For what it's worth, I live in a section of Kitchener across from a forest. We're totally in-town, but no sidewalks. I don't use sidewalks as I drive everywhere, especially since they took away our GRT route away when the LRT was approved. But I am still okay with the property tax hike because it will help out a lot of people.

However, Mr. Davey is right at one point -- there is no 100% perfect solution. No matter how hard the city tries, no matter how hard home owners try, and no matter how hard they try to help each other, there are always going to be times where sidewalks are not walkable, just like the roads are not clear of snow.
 
Yeah so not sure how to respond except to say I wrote the below paragraph literally just before the cherry-picked quote above that questions my compassion.  Sigh... c'mon man.

"I am not ignorant of the challenges of those who have trouble getting around our city. I fully agree that we must work toward better support services for those otherwise unable to clear their sidewalk, like many seniors and people with disabilities, but for the rest of us, cleaning sidewalks is a duty of home ownership."


Proof:
https://www.therecord.com/opinion-story/...-bad-idea/

Thanks for the response, Mr. Davey. My suggestion is calling anyone uncompassionate is straight up wrong. How do we define "old"? How do we define "disability"?

According to research, those (men) 55 and older are a greatest risk. The greatest risk also happens between 6 am and 10 am, when our circadian rhythm is not at its greatest, yet, this is when most people will shovel. Reports that I have read seem to suggest the risk mainly falls on men. Really, anyone with a heart condition is at risk -- but they may not fall under the term "senior" or "disabled". Neither would most consider those around 55 as a senior and unable to shovel.

Disabilities mean a lot of different things. But many have health issues that aren't noticeably 'disabled', but in no way could they ever go and shovel layers of ice off of their sidewalks.

All in all, how many households are actually able to do a good job at clearing the sidewalk? My main biggest issue with your opinion piece was that you are dividing people, the good vs the bad, or as you put it 'the stewards vs the uncompassionate few'. Calling out these people that way is no different than the bullshit politics that the USA ends up in Washington -- and it has no place in Kitchener. Perhaps saying that 'we need to protect the stewards tax bill and work on educating those that don't clean their sidewalks in a timely matter'.

To that end, it still ignores other problems -- single parents working to support themselves and their kids, perhaps with two jobs, taking care of the kids, appointments, and perhaps taking care of an aged parent, etc. People that are down with a serious illness, and simply can't get out. Those people are not uncompassionate.

Then we have the biggest problem -- if everybody that is able bodied and healthy to shovel safely, you can still bet your parking pass at city hall that at least 35% of the sidewalks won't be cleared. Plus some boulevards have short widths in which the plows throw the snow back onto the sidewalks after clearing -- especially corner lots. And the city does ZERO about that. I used to be a superintendent when I was much younger, and I hated the plows, as I could bank on having to use another hour after all my work was done to redo the work the city left behind.

Really, what just about everyone HERE wants, is for the city to at least try. If it's a failure, then so be it.

OR -- the city could have a winter jobs program for teens, much like your summer programs. 1/2 pay, 1/2 community hours.
(02-17-2019, 12:05 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-16-2019, 08:48 PM)the_councillor Wrote: [ -> ]Choosing to block someone based on their respectful opposing views is quite telling.

Some of us engage those with differing views to refine their perspective... like me on this thread for example.

Frankly, I blocked you, because I felt no good would come from the discussion I was having.  I found your continual dismissal of the points I was making frustrating to say the least, continually accusing me of cherry picking data, and since I wasn't likely to be polite about it, so as my mother taught me, if I have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all.

But no no, by all means, make assumptions about how telling it is of my character or whatever.

The tweet you're referring to where I apparently "continually accuse" you of cherry picking data is here for scrutiny (for context, I had posted a pic of poorly city-cleared sidewalks in response to your pic of poorly cleared resident-ones):

"We can both cherry-pick examples all day, but I think if everyone can agree that there's a spectrum ranging from inexpensive & uncaring on one side, to overly-expensive & inefficient on the other... we can work on finding a reasonable solution."

Note that:

1.  I said "We" not "You".
2.  I have not ever accused you of "cherry picking data" except for this one tweet above.  I have no idea why you keep saying "continually".  Once is not "continually".
3.  My continual dismissal of your points?  Pretty sure those italics are interchangeable.