+- Waterloo Region Connected (https://www.waterlooregionconnected.com)
+-- Forum: Connected Café (https://www.waterlooregionconnected.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=15)
+--- Forum: Outside Waterloo Region (https://www.waterlooregionconnected.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=33)
+--- Thread: Toronto transit projects (/showthread.php?tid=527)
RE: Toronto transit projects - Canard - 06-23-2017
Metrolinx beefs up penalties in vehicle contract with Alstom in wake of Bombardier dispute
RE: Toronto transit projects - Canard - 06-24-2017
...as others are pointing out, there's a cost to this: the Alstom LRV's are about three times the price of the Bombardier Flexities. So they've already accounted for the penalty and Toronto flushed 0.5bn down the toilet.
RE: Toronto transit projects - ijmorlan - 06-24-2017
(06-24-2017, 07:45 AM)Canard Wrote: ...as others are pointing out, there's a cost to this: the Alstom LRV's are about three times the price of the Bombardier Flexities. So they've already accounted for the penalty and Toronto flushed 0.5bn down the toilet.
Not necessarily. It’s not clear that vehicles are actually available to be purchased at Bombardier’s stated price on this continent. They may be, and we will find out over the next year or so, but so far it’s not looking promising. If they’re not, then the savings that would be had if we did get Bombardier vehicles rather than Alstom are fictitious.
RE: Toronto transit projects - Canard - 06-24-2017
I'm not sure I follow. The FLEXITY Freedom LRV's they have on order are 4m a pop. The Alstom CITADIS Spirit LRV's they just bought a bunch of cost them 12m a pop. What am I missing?
RE: Toronto transit projects - ijmorlan - 06-24-2017
(06-24-2017, 09:36 PM)Canard Wrote: I'm not sure I follow. The FLEXITY Freedom LRV's they have on order are 4m a pop. The Alstom CITADIS Spirit LRV's they just bought a bunch of cost them 12m a pop. What am I missing?
Well, there is still some uncertainty about what is actually going to happen, but presumably Alstom will actually deliver its vehicles. It’s not yet clear that Bombardier can actually do so. Just because the store is advertising 60% off doesn’t mean they actually have any of the product available to sell. You might have to go to the store across town that isn’t advertising a sale but will actually sell you the stuff you need now.
Now, to be fair, I fully expect Bombardier to be able to deliver eventually, and if the Alstoms really cost 3 times as much there is something wrong somewhere — it’s a bit much for these vehicles to cost even $4M each, but $12M is just ridiculous — but to date we don’t actually know for certain that Bombardier can deliver a complete, working vehicle, in this market.
(and yes, I know Alstom also doesn’t have an inventory of vehicles ready to drive now. The store thing is just an analogy)
RE: Toronto transit projects - tomh009 - 06-25-2017
Does Alstom include some maintenance etc that Bombardier does not? The price difference looks just too big.
RE: Toronto transit projects - Canard - 06-25-2017
(06-24-2017, 11:16 PM)ijmorlan Wrote: Now, to be fair, I fully expect Bombardier to be able to deliver eventually, and if the Alstoms really cost 3 times as much there is something wrong somewhere — it’s a bit much for these vehicles to cost even $4M each, but $12M is just ridiculous — but to date we don’t actually know for certain that Bombardier can deliver a complete, working vehicle, in this market.
But we don't know Alstom can, either. Yeah, they've had a train sort of moving every now and then on their test track, but that's it. It's still missing all sorts of panels, etc. - they're only slightly ahead of Bombardier in that regard.
RE: Toronto transit projects - ijmorlan - 06-25-2017
(06-25-2017, 06:52 AM)Canard Wrote:(06-24-2017, 11:16 PM)ijmorlan Wrote: Now, to be fair, I fully expect Bombardier to be able to deliver eventually, and if the Alstoms really cost 3 times as much there is something wrong somewhere — it’s a bit much for these vehicles to cost even $4M each, but $12M is just ridiculous — but to date we don’t actually know for certain that Bombardier can deliver a complete, working vehicle, in this market.
But we don't know Alstom can, either. Yeah, they've had a train sort of moving every now and then on their test track, but that's it. It's still missing all sorts of panels, etc. - they're only slightly ahead of Bombardier in that regard.
You’re talking about Ottawa, right? You’re right, of course — unless and until they deliver, we won’t really know. Are they on schedule, however? We know Bombardier is late. Is Alstom just not done yet, as scheduled, or were they supposed to be farther along by now?
RE: Toronto transit projects - Pheidippides - 06-25-2017
Where is this $12m per vehicle cost coming from? The article Canard posted says $528 million for 61 vehicles which is $8.65 million per vehicle and aligns with previous reporting of average vehicle costs of $8.7 vs. 4.2 million per vehicle; and the Alstrom vehicle is bigger which explains part of the difference (the cost is nearly proportional by the vehicle capacity ($29,642 vs. $25,609 per passenger seat).
RE: Toronto transit projects - ijmorlan - 06-25-2017
(06-25-2017, 11:31 AM)Pheidippides Wrote: Where is this $12m per vehicle cost coming from? The article Canard posted says $528 million for 61 vehicles which is $8.65 million per vehicle and aligns with previous reporting of average vehicle costs of $8.7 vs. 4.2 million per vehicle; and the Alstrom vehicle is bigger which explains part of the difference (the cost is nearly proportional by the vehicle capacity ($29,642 vs. $25,609 per passenger seat).
It’s also worth mentioning that it’s not appropriate to characterize the entire amount spent on Alstom cars as being “blown”, even if we assume that there is no benefit whatsoever to the higher price for Alstom: only the amount more than the Bombardier cars would cost could conceivably be a waste. I’m assuming that we believe the cars are needed in the first place but I don’t think even Metrolinx would contract to buy cars they don’t believe they’ll need.
On a somewhat related note, did anybody notice that John Tory is saying that the choice of modes on Sheppard (LRT vs. subway) is still open, even though a sensible decision to build LRT was taken something like 10 years ago? While in Scarborough, the idiotic decision to build subway is final, even though that project is nowhere near beginning actual construction.
RE: Toronto transit projects - Canard - 06-25-2017
Yes, it is "blown" because they already didn't have a home for half of the 182 Flexities on order. So they just wasted even more money buying Alstom LRV's.
http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/metrolinx-bombardier-flexity-freedom-alstom-citadis-spirit-lrvs.18819/page-89
RE: Toronto transit projects - Pheidippides - 06-25-2017
I think I see now. I think the $12 million is suppose to be the sum of the two average price per vehicle ($8.7 + $4.2) which would be ok if there were the same number of vehicles from each manufacturer, but there are not; there are nearly three times as many Bombardier vehicles which significantly lowers the average price. I guess if none of the Bombardier vehicles ever get delivered AND there is no refund that would increase the average price to $12 million per vehicle too; but that seems unlikely).
The contracts were $770 million (Bombardier) + $528 million (Alstrom) or $1.298 billion or $5.34 million average price per vehicle; an average price of $12 million is misleading.
RE: Toronto transit projects - ijmorlan - 06-25-2017
(06-25-2017, 05:21 PM)Canard Wrote: Yes, it is "blown" because they already didn't have a home for half of the 182 Flexities on order. So they just wasted even more money buying Alstom LRV's.
http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/metrolinx-bombardier-flexity-freedom-alstom-citadis-spirit-lrvs.18819/page-89
Ok, I see what you’re getting at. Although if we want to be really pessimistic about Bombardier maybe Metrolinx is counting on being able to reduce the contract.
Or we can be optimistic and believe that Metrolinx is actually planning to construct the Sheppard LRT and possibly other LRTs besides. This order could be partially diverted to Mississauga and Hamilton.
Or maybe there will just end up being a fire sale on unneeded vehicles.
RE: Toronto transit projects - Canard - 06-25-2017
...in which case, we win!
RE: Toronto transit projects - KevinL - 06-25-2017
Well, as Ontario taxpayers, we also lose. But that loss is more spread out.