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+--- Thread: Grand River Transit (/showthread.php?tid=13)
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RE: Grand River Transit - Viewfromthe42 - 12-21-2015
In going to see Star Wars on Saturday, we took the 20 (coin flip between it and the 204) out to The Boardwalk. Only a 20 minute bus ride, and aside from the bad pedestrian experience at The Boardwalk, was otherwise convenient; having a café right at the bus terminal, from which to watch for your bus, is quite nice.
It also made me wonder how many people realize how easily, quickly, and directly they can get downtown - the reverse of our trip - from the suburban areas.
RE: Grand River Transit - tomh009 - 12-21-2015
(12-20-2015, 11:58 PM)mpd618 Wrote:(12-20-2015, 09:14 PM)tomh009 Wrote: But seriously ... what would be the incremental cost to eliminate fares altogether? The taxpayers already pay two-thirds of the costs, and eliminating fares would simplify a lot of things -- not to mention substantially increase ridership. The cost per passenger might not change at all if this were to increase ridership by 50%.
This is a radical option, but is it really so crazy?
The foregone current farebox revenue plus the increased costs due to that increased ridership means this is a pretty expensive proposition.
For serious discussion, I was hoping for more detail than just "pretty expensive proposition". OK, so I can search myself, too, and I found GRT's business plan here (not latest, but has good detail):
http://www.grt.ca/en/aboutus/grtbusinessplan.asp
From here you can see that fares recover roughly 40% of the costs, and then calculate backwards to find the total cost of GRT to be about $79M, so the fares are bringing in about $30M. That's about 4% of the total regional property tax base (of $750M), or $70/household, using the region's average assessment value. Is $70/household really an outrageous amount to pay to make transit completely free?
Now, this doesn't include the cost savings of NOT collecting fares, nor does it include additional capacity, so some route might be fairly busy. In the above business plan, you can determine that GRT was delivering 550K hours of service for 20M passengers, or less than 40 passengers per service-hour. If you assume an average ride of 30 minutes, that's only an average of 20 people on a bus: clearly there is capacity to carry more people on many routes. Adding 20% capacity (should free transit become outrageously popular) would cost about $15M, or an additional $35/household.
RE: Grand River Transit - taylortbb - 12-21-2015
(12-21-2015, 09:12 AM)MidTowner Wrote: Regarding what other posters have said about Ion's appeal, I'm not sure I "buy" that a train is inherently more comfortable. I think plam's right when he says it depends. He also makes a really good point about wayfinding- even if it's not significantly easier, maybe people will perceive it to be so (maybe the same with comfort).
Having grown up in Toronto I can say there's a pretty huge difference. The number of people I knew that were perfectly happy on the subway, but refused to take the bus on principle is quite substantial. They'd gladly pay $5 in parking fees to drive to a subway station rather than take the bus for (effectively) free (free transfers). Even Toronto's old and overcrowded subway felt comparably fast and comfortable.
The reasons were varied, from feeling sick on buses with not enough to windows, to confusion about where one's stop was (automated stop announcements have helped this significantly). The service frequency and reliability was also significant. The TTC minimum service standard of every 5 minutes for the subway is huge. No matter the time of day, if the subway is open (and it is 6am-1:30am daily) then the trains run at least every 5 minutes, even if they're nearly empty. It means schedules for the subway don't even exist, because there's no need for them.
ION won't quite have the frequency advantages (7.5-15 minute headways depending on time of day), but the other points remain valid. I'd also really like to see ION upgraded to a 10 minute minimum service standard, a reasonable compromise for Waterloo Region's ridership.
RE: Grand River Transit - chutten - 12-21-2015
Mentioned earlier, ION will have "cachet" or a different feeling in the mind than the bus network. It is a single thing that is (in a simplified form) easy for the general public to understand and use. And it'll be new. And it's being touted as fast and safe and modern and comfortable and convenient... and we've been hearing about it for years (and will continue to for years to come).
Unlike the buses, which people generally only complain about (like the timing of the 201 and 204 interconnect at at F-H at Highland. Come on!), people won't start complaining about the ION's service until 2017
So, the 'novelty' will attract people to it, if nothing else. I don't expect it to be a large trend, but one that might be measurable.
That being said, running the numbers shows that cars are just too good in the Region at the moment to give up. Copious usually-free parking, cross-town traffic that is frustrating only at peak... if you already own a car, you aren't likely to use ION except for novelty's sake.
(( I hadn't thought about ION as lunch-time transit. So long as they implement fare collection properly enough that it's easy for occasional riders, I can easily see the tech people hopping on to transit to and from lunch. The level of service means you know you can get back to the office in time for that 1:30 someone booked that morning. Then we're getting hybrid passengers: ones who commute by car, but end up using transit during the day. ))
Ultimately I think ION is a part of the Region making the (safe) bet that traffic and parking will worsen in the future in the Region. Then someone considering a first, replacement, or second vehicle will finally have an acceptable alternative.
RE: Grand River Transit - Viewfromthe42 - 12-21-2015
Also, after seeing the traffic at the malls for Christmas shopping, some of those lunchtime Christmas shoppers might think about using ION instead of driving, even with traffic and parking likely to be slightly better when construction is done. I'm most hopeful of the introduction to ION coming from a campaign to get Canada Day patrons for both the cores to use offsite parking to reach the Waterloo and Kitchener events via ION.
RE: Grand River Transit - timio - 12-21-2015
(12-21-2015, 02:31 PM)chutten Wrote: (like the timing of the 201 and 204 interconnect at at F-H at Highland. Come on!),Or the 202/204 at The Boardwalk.
RE: Grand River Transit - timc - 12-21-2015
(12-21-2015, 02:43 PM)Viewfromthe42 Wrote: Also, after seeing the traffic at the malls for Christmas shopping, some of those lunchtime Christmas shoppers might think about using ION instead of driving, even with traffic and parking likely to be slightly better when construction is done. I'm most hopeful of the introduction to ION coming from a campaign to get Canada Day patrons for both the cores to use offsite parking to reach the Waterloo and Kitchener events via ION.
The main Waterloo event for Canada Day is at Columbia Lake, which is not very close (over 1 km away) to an ION station. Mall traffic is mostly horrendous right now because of construction for ion.
RE: Grand River Transit - mpd618 - 12-21-2015
(12-21-2015, 10:33 AM)tomh009 Wrote: Now, this doesn't include the cost savings of NOT collecting fares, nor does it include additional capacity, so some route might be fairly busy. In the above business plan, you can determine that GRT was delivering 550K hours of service for 20M passengers, or less than 40 passengers per service-hour. If you assume an average ride of 30 minutes, that's only an average of 20 people on a bus: clearly there is capacity to carry more people on many routes. Adding 20% capacity (should free transit become outrageously popular) would cost about $15M, or an additional $35/household.
Just like roads, transit infrastructure needs to handle demand on peak routes at peak times. There may well be lots of capacity on average due to coverage routes, but routes like the 7, 12, 201, etc. probably don't have it in their peak sections. I don't know whether it would require 20% or 100% more capacity. The best comparison is with the effect of the U-Pass on transit ridership. And I would assume that the biggest latent demand would be for transit to and from the downtowns, where free transit would compete quite nicely with paid parking.
It's within the realm of feasibility and a reasonable question to consider, I think.
RE: Grand River Transit - tomh009 - 12-21-2015
(12-21-2015, 02:31 PM)chutten Wrote: That being said, running the numbers shows that cars are just too good in the Region at the moment to give up. Copious usually-free parking, cross-town traffic that is frustrating only at peak... if you already own a car, you aren't likely to use ION except for novelty's sake.
We have two cars, and yet we'll use ION. We do live downtown, though, which makes a difference.
But don't you think eliminating the fares altogether would change that equation in a big way?
RE: Grand River Transit - white_brian - 12-22-2015
I think going forward it would make a dramatic difference, with the cost of living going through the roof people aren't going to be able to sustain an automobile. Between housing, utilities, food and all matter of things costing more unless your blessed with a high earning job it would pay you to take transit. With car sharing services, rental cars (for extended trips) and the right transit infrastructure you wouldn't need to own a car if you never got used to it...
RE: Grand River Transit - Waterlooer - 12-22-2015
My dad doesn't take the bus and lives in the suburbs, but tells me he'll be taking the local bus to Uptown then taking the ION train to Conestoga or Downtown Kitchener once ION is in operation. The comfort, space, and convenience of a train certainly will gain ridership.
RE: Grand River Transit - mpd618 - 12-22-2015
(12-21-2015, 11:43 PM)tomh009 Wrote: But don't you think eliminating the fares altogether would change that equation in a big way?
I personally think eliminating the friction of transit fares / passes would have a lot of impact, e.g. through a ubiquitous fare card that is used for transit, paying for parking, etc. Or open payment system with tap-to-pay.
RE: Grand River Transit - Viewfromthe42 - 12-22-2015
(12-21-2015, 08:54 PM)timc Wrote:(12-21-2015, 02:43 PM)Viewfromthe42 Wrote: Also, after seeing the traffic at the malls for Christmas shopping, some of those lunchtime Christmas shoppers might think about using ION instead of driving, even with traffic and parking likely to be slightly better when construction is done. I'm most hopeful of the introduction to ION coming from a campaign to get Canada Day patrons for both the cores to use offsite parking to reach the Waterloo and Kitchener events via ION.
The main Waterloo event for Canada Day is at Columbia Lake, which is not very close (over 1 km away) to an ION station. Mall traffic is mostly horrendous right now because of construction for ion.
The parking lots are not much closer, and having driven to the closest parking lot to Columbia Street, only to have it take 70 minutes to get from turning the car on in the lot to turning it off at King and Bridgeport, there is benefit to be had in dispersing vehicles. If someone wants to spend 70 minutes to drive ~3km, it's indeed their choice. But I'd like to present people with alternatives.
RE: Grand River Transit - ookpik - 12-22-2015
(12-22-2015, 08:38 AM)Viewfromthe42 Wrote:+1(12-21-2015, 08:54 PM)timc Wrote: The main Waterloo event for Canada Day is at Columbia Lake, which is not very close (over 1 km away) to an ION station. Mall traffic is mostly horrendous right now because of construction for ion.The parking lots are not much closer, and having driven to the closest parking lot to Columbia Street, only to have it take 70 minutes to get from turning the car on in the lot to turning it off at King and Bridgeport, there is benefit to be had in dispersing vehicles. If someone wants to spend 70 minutes to drive ~3km, it's indeed their choice. But I'd like to present people with alternatives.
If you get a parking space on campus it will take you a long time to exit after the fireworks display. If you park further afield it will take you just as long to walk back to the car.
(We live 3 or 4 km from Columbia Lake a stone's throw from a new LRT station. We've always walked to this event, both ways. It takes us 30 to 40 minutes, mostly along the Laurel Trail. The LRT won't change how we get to this event.)
All that said, this is an event that occurs but once a year. How does it relate in any significant way to LRT ridership?
RE: Grand River Transit - Viewfromthe42 - 12-22-2015
(12-22-2015, 08:56 AM)ookpik Wrote:(12-22-2015, 08:38 AM)Viewfromthe42 Wrote: The parking lots are not much closer, and having driven to the closest parking lot to Columbia Street, only to have it take 70 minutes to get from turning the car on in the lot to turning it off at King and Bridgeport, there is benefit to be had in dispersing vehicles. If someone wants to spend 70 minutes to drive ~3km, it's indeed their choice. But I'd like to present people with alternatives.+1
If you get a parking space on campus it will take you a long time to exit after the fireworks display. If you park further afield it will take you just as long to walk back to the car.
(We live 3 or 4 km from Columbia Lake a stone's throw from a new LRT station. We've always walked to this event, both ways. It takes us 30 to 40 minutes, mostly along the Laurel Trail. The LRT won't change how we get to this event.)
All that said, this is an event that occurs but once a year. How does it relate in any significant way to LRT ridership?
Events don't often relate to general ridership, but they can be an introduction to the service. Many people drive everywhere, but in Ottawa, with the horrible traffic, they'll park at a park'n'ride and then ride the equivalent of our iXpress downtown to the show. There are buses as far as the eye can see, and for free, after the fireworks, and they're always a lot faster than spending an hour or more trying to get a car out of any walkable parking lot.
When you give people an access point to ION, whether they become a transit user, or buy their kid a GRT pass, or just understand the utility and experience a bit better, all have moved the dial in a positive direction.