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+--- Thread: Road design, safety and Vision Zero (/showthread.php?tid=1409)
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - tomh009 - 01-06-2022
It was also the statement from just one police officer, not an official press release or a media write-up.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - bravado - 01-17-2022
London Police have made a very relevant tweet that is getting roasted in the replies at the moment. I wonder what WR police would have to say on this issue.
Quote:London Police Service ON
@lpsmediaoffice
Hi there! If we busied ourselves with every vehicle driving over the speed limit, we'd never be available for calls for service. Plus, we'd rarely observe drivers at the speeds of stunt driving and other offenses. Officers have to use discretion when enforcing the laws.
https://twitter.com/lpsmediaoffice/status/1482392614666186757
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - danbrotherston - 01-17-2022
(01-17-2022, 12:44 AM)bravado Wrote: London Police have made a very relevant tweet that is getting roasted in the replies at the moment. I wonder what WR police would have to say on this issue.
Quote:London Police Service ON
@lpsmediaoffice
Hi there! If we busied ourselves with every vehicle driving over the speed limit, we'd never be available for calls for service. Plus, we'd rarely observe drivers at the speeds of stunt driving and other offenses. Officers have to use discretion when enforcing the laws.
https://twitter.com/lpsmediaoffice/status/1482392614666186757
I'm sure they have the exact same position.
And I have little doubt they'd also treat it with the same flippancy.
My objection to the tweet isn't really about the reality (the situation today is that the police can't ticket every speeding driver), it is about the attitude behind the tweet. They didn't even bother to suggest that speeding "a little bit" is even wrong.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - jeffster - 01-17-2022
(01-17-2022, 10:21 AM)danbrotherston Wrote:(01-17-2022, 12:44 AM)bravado Wrote: London Police have made a very relevant tweet that is getting roasted in the replies at the moment. I wonder what WR police would have to say on this issue.
https://twitter.com/lpsmediaoffice/status/1482392614666186757
I'm sure they have the exact same position.
And I have little doubt they'd also treat it with the same flippancy.
My objection to the tweet isn't really about the reality (the situation today is that the police can't ticket every speeding driver), it is about the attitude behind the tweet. They didn't even bother to suggest that speeding "a little bit" is even wrong.
The police were wrong, though. You start enforcing 'even a little bit' people will start slowing down.
I am not suggesting pulling someone over for doing 55 in a 50, but yeah, 56 pull them over. Start with that. And forgot about 'paperwork'. Write up the ticket and be on your way. Not many are going to go to court to argue a 6 over. It's a petty charge. But if people know that their day might be ruined, they'll start to slow down.
Alternatively, cities can reduce speed limits by 10-20 km. If cops are hell bent on not charging passive speeders, and people naturally go 15-20 over, than residential street are set to 30 (45 will be reality for aggressive driver), 40 on roads like Ottawa South (55-60 will be seen, which is the actual speed limit) and 50 on a road like Homer Watson (and 60-70 will be seen).
When I started driving years ago, the behaviour we see now didn't exist. People may have done 5-10 over, but that was it. People also stopped at stop signs, and stopped at red lights before making their right turn.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - plam - 01-17-2022
(01-17-2022, 11:05 AM)jeffster Wrote:(01-17-2022, 10:21 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: I'm sure they have the exact same position.
And I have little doubt they'd also treat it with the same flippancy.
My objection to the tweet isn't really about the reality (the situation today is that the police can't ticket every speeding driver), it is about the attitude behind the tweet. They didn't even bother to suggest that speeding "a little bit" is even wrong.
The police were wrong, though. You start enforcing 'even a little bit' people will start slowing down.
I am not suggesting pulling someone over for doing 55 in a 50, but yeah, 56 pull them over. Start with that. And forgot about 'paperwork'. Write up the ticket and be on your way. Not many are going to go to court to argue a 6 over. It's a petty charge. But if people know that their day might be ruined, they'll start to slow down.
Alternatively, cities can reduce speed limits by 10-20 km. If cops are hell bent on not charging passive speeders, and people naturally go 15-20 over, than residential street are set to 30 (45 will be reality for aggressive driver), 40 on roads like Ottawa South (55-60 will be seen, which is the actual speed limit) and 50 on a road like Homer Watson (and 60-70 will be seen).
When I started driving years ago, the behaviour we see now didn't exist. People may have done 5-10 over, but that was it. People also stopped at stop signs, and stopped at red lights before making their right turn.
I got a photo ticket for 105 in a 100 zone in NZ. That was surprising.
I also reflexively distrust comments like "it was better back in the day". Is there any evidence for that?
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - jeffster - 01-17-2022
(01-17-2022, 02:16 PM)plam Wrote:(01-17-2022, 11:05 AM)jeffster Wrote: The police were wrong, though. You start enforcing 'even a little bit' people will start slowing down.
I am not suggesting pulling someone over for doing 55 in a 50, but yeah, 56 pull them over. Start with that. And forgot about 'paperwork'. Write up the ticket and be on your way. Not many are going to go to court to argue a 6 over. It's a petty charge. But if people know that their day might be ruined, they'll start to slow down.
Alternatively, cities can reduce speed limits by 10-20 km. If cops are hell bent on not charging passive speeders, and people naturally go 15-20 over, than residential street are set to 30 (45 will be reality for aggressive driver), 40 on roads like Ottawa South (55-60 will be seen, which is the actual speed limit) and 50 on a road like Homer Watson (and 60-70 will be seen).
When I started driving years ago, the behaviour we see now didn't exist. People may have done 5-10 over, but that was it. People also stopped at stop signs, and stopped at red lights before making their right turn.
I got a photo ticket for 105 in a 100 zone in NZ. That was surprising.
I also reflexively distrust comments like "it was better back in the day". Is there any evidence for that?
Just my recollection of driving. It seems to be only the past 10 years or less than cars routinely do 20 over, and ignore stop signs if the way looks clear, same with turning right on red, many don't even bother to slow down. You just didn't see that behaviour before.
As for an additional evidence - as brought up in that Twitter by London police, police don't seem to have the resources to ticket minor infractions anymore.
I think part of the problem is that cities added additional stops signs on certain streets as methods of traffic calming (William Street between Westmount and Caroline in Waterloo is a great example). When people become familiar with a neighbourhood and they understand the traffic, they might feel that it is safe to ignore traffic signs.
A common practice I see now at Greenbrook and Stirling -- those turning left on Stirling from Greenbrook, you'll quite often will see a second/third car follow the lead car, and completely ignore the sign, as well as any traffic that is stop on Stirling trying to make their way wherever. It's bad because I have seen a couple pedestrians being hit at that spot, and myself I have been hit.
Maybe poor design leads to poor driving, I don't know. But whatever the case, many drivers and cyclists treat signs like they're not there.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - tomh009 - 01-17-2022
(01-17-2022, 05:54 PM)jeffster Wrote: Just my recollection of driving. It seems to be only the past 10 years or less than cars routinely do 20 over, and ignore stop signs if the way looks clear, same with turning right on red, many don't even bother to slow down. You just didn't see that behaviour before.
On the 401? 20-25 over was quite common way back in the 80s, at least.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - ijmorlan - 01-17-2022
(01-17-2022, 06:30 PM)tomh009 Wrote: On the 401? 20-25 over was quite common way back in the 80s, at least.
To my recollection, the speed of traffic on the 401 has always been around 120km/h or even higher, going back at least to the ’90s.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - jamincan - 01-17-2022
Is this 120 per your speedometer? I have noticed that my GPS indicates a lower speed than my speedometer. As someone who commutes to Mississauga every day, if you go 120kph, you'd definitely be in the top quartile of drivers. I suspect the median is much closer to 110kph (actual speed) and that everyone thinks they're actually going faster.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - tomh009 - 01-17-2022
Older speedos were quite optimistic, 5% over was quite common as they were analog instruments and designed to be sure to never under-indicate the speed (so that no one could claim to be not speeding according to the speedo when actually driving over the speed limit).
However, recent cars generally have electronic speedos that are quite accurate. If our car (a 2018 model) shows 115 km/h, it's generally within 1% of what my phone will also show, using its GPS.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - danbrotherston - 01-18-2022
(01-17-2022, 05:54 PM)jeffster Wrote:(01-17-2022, 02:16 PM)plam Wrote: I got a photo ticket for 105 in a 100 zone in NZ. That was surprising.
I also reflexively distrust comments like "it was better back in the day". Is there any evidence for that?
Just my recollection of driving. It seems to be only the past 10 years or less than cars routinely do 20 over, and ignore stop signs if the way looks clear, same with turning right on red, many don't even bother to slow down. You just didn't see that behaviour before.
As for an additional evidence - as brought up in that Twitter by London police, police don't seem to have the resources to ticket minor infractions anymore.
I think part of the problem is that cities added additional stops signs on certain streets as methods of traffic calming (William Street between Westmount and Caroline in Waterloo is a great example). When people become familiar with a neighbourhood and they understand the traffic, they might feel that it is safe to ignore traffic signs.
A common practice I see now at Greenbrook and Stirling -- those turning left on Stirling from Greenbrook, you'll quite often will see a second/third car follow the lead car, and completely ignore the sign, as well as any traffic that is stop on Stirling trying to make their way wherever. It's bad because I have seen a couple pedestrians being hit at that spot, and myself I have been hit.
Maybe poor design leads to poor driving, I don't know. But whatever the case, many drivers and cyclists treat signs like they're not there.
And you believe they did before? Do you have evidence that they did?
There is some objective evidence driving has gotten worse, but only some of the things you describe are worse. Distracted driving is objectively measured to be worse, there are some indications speeding is worse because modern cars are higher off the ground reducing the perception of speed and sound insulated (strange given that only people outside cars are blamed for sound insulation).
But stuff like stop signs? I've never seen any evidence that has gotten worse.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - jeffster - 01-18-2022
(01-17-2022, 06:30 PM)tomh009 Wrote:(01-17-2022, 05:54 PM)jeffster Wrote: Just my recollection of driving. It seems to be only the past 10 years or less than cars routinely do 20 over, and ignore stop signs if the way looks clear, same with turning right on red, many don't even bother to slow down. You just didn't see that behaviour before.
On the 401? 20-25 over was quite common way back in the 80s, at least.
I started driving in 1990 -- and it was probably | 120 | 110 | 100 | depending on that lane, on the 401. But I am mostly referring to the streets in the city.
Super annoying is when I am doing the limit and a little over, and travelling in the left hand lane, because I am going to make a left hand turn, you have some nut job behind you flashing their lights, honking and giving you the finger, as then speed by you at 2x the limit. Even more annoying on side streets. I have had people pass me when I am doing 45 in a 40. Glasgow is a perfect example. Long street, no stop signs, and a lot of impatient drivers. There used to be good police enforcement on Glasgow back in the day, as it was a great speed trap. Not sure why they stopped.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - danbrotherston - 01-20-2022
Anyone know why WRPS is charging pedestrians who are hit when they have the right of way?
https://kitchener.citynews.ca/police-beat/pedestrian-charged-after-crash-in-kitchener-4974531
I'm so tired of this bullshit.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - Bytor - 01-20-2022
(01-17-2022, 12:44 AM)bravado Wrote: London Police have made a very relevant tweet that is getting roasted in the replies at the moment. I wonder what WR police would have to say on this issue.
Quote:London Police Service ON
@lpsmediaoffice
Hi there! If we busied ourselves with every vehicle driving over the speed limit, we'd never be available for calls for service. Plus, we'd rarely observe drivers at the speeds of stunt driving and other offenses. Officers have to use discretion when enforcing the laws.
https://twitter.com/lpsmediaoffice/status/1482392614666186757
It appears they took that tweet down.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - Bytor - 01-20-2022
(01-20-2022, 01:23 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: Anyone know why WRPS is charging pedestrians who are hit when they have the right of way?
https://kitchener.citynews.ca/police-beat/pedestrian-charged-after-crash-in-kitchener-4974531
I'm so tired of this bullshit.
The only reason I can think of is that the person did not cross at the crosswalk. However, the reports do not mention anything about that.