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Cycling in Waterloo Region - Printable Version

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RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - panamaniac - 05-06-2018

(05-06-2018, 02:02 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:
(05-06-2018, 11:30 AM)tomh009 Wrote: Based on my personal experience, I really think the vast majority of drivers (and bicyclists) in the region are decent and courteous, but as always there are some bad apples mixed in, and of course those are the ones we remember.
.......

The second issue, is, as you pointed out, one of perception.  We're naturally inclined to place greater weight on bad interactions. It makes sense evolutionarily: you only get to die once.  On our ride the other day, my partner and I were bullied by a driver who felt that we shouldn't be turning left off of the road we were on.  This really spooked us, and we spent some time at the side of the road calming down.  While there, at least 5 different drivers pulled over and asked if we needed any help.  One even offered us a ride.  Yet, the story here is still that one driver who bullied us off the road.  And after all, it only takes one bad driver to end a life.
....

Out of curiosity, how did that driver actually do that?


RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - danbrotherston - 05-06-2018

(05-06-2018, 02:20 PM)panamaniac Wrote:
(05-06-2018, 02:02 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: .......

The second issue, is, as you pointed out, one of perception.  We're naturally inclined to place greater weight on bad interactions. It makes sense evolutionarily: you only get to die once.  On our ride the other day, my partner and I were bullied by a driver who felt that we shouldn't be turning left off of the road we were on.  This really spooked us, and we spent some time at the side of the road calming down.  While there, at least 5 different drivers pulled over and asked if we needed any help.  One even offered us a ride.  Yet, the story here is still that one driver who bullied us off the road.  And after all, it only takes one bad driver to end a life.
....

Out of curiosity, how did that driver actually do that?

With traffic stopped because of cars turning left ahead, my partner and I signalled left and pulled into the space between two vehicles--this is a perfectly legal and safe movement, and totally appropriate for making a left turn.

The driver behind lays on the horn, after he lets off, I can hear him yelling at us telling us to get out of the lane, I turn around and shout "we're turning left", and wave my signal arm around.  He honks again.

I'm not particularly happy about this, so I flip him off.  Obviously not an appropriate response, but he squeals around us onto the shoulder and proceeds to yell at us some more about how we're not supposed to be blocking traffic (traffic is still stopped at this point) I tell him to move along, although not so politely, more curses are exchanged, and eventually he moves off still on the shoulder.  My partner is in tears at this point, so we move off to the shoulder of the road.

You can argue that my response was not good, and it wasn't, but that doesn't excuse a driver in a large vehicle repeatedly honking at us, and then dangerously swerving off the road to lecture and cuss some more.  It's pretty fucking intimidating having a pickup truck behind you rev and squeal their tires.


RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - Canard - 05-06-2018

If it makes you feel any better (I doubt it will), drivers like this bully other drivers as well. The difference is that other drivers have a car around them...

(You can only imagine how bullied I am when driving my little 39 hp Diesel smart fortwo - it's insane the complex some people have behind the wheel.)


RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - jamincan - 05-06-2018

What I find encouraging about this past weekend was simply the number of people out on the bike. And it was all sorts, not just lycra-clad weekend warriors, but also families, friends, school kids and so on. The more people are riding their bikes, the more drivers will become accustomed to sharing the road with them. The more people are riding their bike, the more quickly the cities and region will address shortcomings in infrastructure. The key in all of this, is that more people need to ride their bikes, and that is what I saw happening.


RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - Pheidippides - 05-06-2018

(05-06-2018, 02:02 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: Humans are never going to be perfect, which is why it's a bad idea to design a system which assumes we can be perfect.  

Our transportation system should not be designed with humans being a single point of failure.

Well said.

The fact that we keep building new and rebuilding existing infrastructure in the same way as we have in generations past is insane.

The fact that our infrastructure design even allows for vehicles get up to 137kph in a 60kph zone, or even that we have 60kph zones within the city to begin with, illustrates how over built the roads within the city are and how ill-suited they are to mixing modes.

I too have been encouraged by the number of people cycling this year, but I think there is still a far greater untapped potential group of people who are going to need better infrastructure before they are going to get out of their vehicles. My neighbourhood at Queen and Highland is a great example. We are <2km from the market, central KPL, and school, but need to either risk our lives on the road or ride illegally on the sidewalk to do daily errands as a family by bike.

I for one will be asking hard questions of all my municipal candidates this fall about their cycling implementation strategy. Not some long term (20yr) plan or wishful thinking, but what are you actually going to change in the next year to make cycling a more viable option? Edmonton and other communities have proven that change can happen fast. This is my ballot box issue this year. I am tired of the status-quo. I think too many politicians and bureaucrats are afraid of failing, but I am more afraid of them not even trying. I wouldn't even actually mind if the city tried something and it didn't work out exactly as planned; as long as the learned from it and kept trying - at least it shows they are making a effort.


RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - tomh009 - 05-06-2018

(05-06-2018, 10:10 PM)Pheidippides Wrote: I too have been encouraged by the number of people cycling this year, but I think there is still a far greater untapped potential group of people who are going to need better infrastructure before they are going to get out of their vehicles. My neighbourhood at Queen and Highland is a great example. We are <2km from the market, central KPL, and school, but need to either risk our lives on the road or ride illegally on the sidewalk to do daily errands as a family by bike.

Queen St S is quite narrow from Charles onward, until then it doesn't seem like a major life-risk (though I have no fatality data). But cycling to the market should not be so difficult, along Mill, Peter and Eby St.

And both are just a 20-minute walk away: walking counts as active transportation, too. Smile


RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - danbrotherston - 05-07-2018

(05-06-2018, 10:52 PM)tomh009 Wrote:
(05-06-2018, 10:10 PM)Pheidippides Wrote: I too have been encouraged by the number of people cycling this year, but I think there is still a far greater untapped potential group of people who are going to need better infrastructure before they are going to get out of their vehicles. My neighbourhood at Queen and Highland is a great example. We are <2km from the market, central KPL, and school, but need to either risk our lives on the road or ride illegally on the sidewalk to do daily errands as a family by bike.

Queen St S is quite narrow from Charles onward, until then it doesn't seem like a major life-risk (though I have no fatality data). But cycling to the market should not be so difficult, along Mill, Peter and Eby St.

And both are just a 20-minute walk away: walking counts as active transportation, too. Smile

I'm not sure on collision data either, but I can definitely understand why Queen would be unfriendly to cycling, especially between Highland and Courtland (there are bike lanes after Courtland).  The lanes are narrow, and there is in many places a centre median making it difficult for drivers to pass safely.  Worse, there is a striped edge line about 0.6-0.9 meters away from the curb, giving a space that some drivers will expect cyclists to use, but is clearly insufficient space to safely pass a cyclist in.

The net result is you can either bike in the gutter, and risk being hit by drivers passing too closely...which isn't comfortable, or you can take the lane, and deal with angry drivers breathing down your neck who believe you should not be in their way, which is also not comfortable.

Either way, it's an uncomfortable ride, regardless of actual safety.

The road has pretty low speeds on it during rush hour.  Between Highland and Courtland, I will average only a few km/h less on my bike than I would in a car meaning the frustration from drivers is entirely pointless.  I will say that many drivers do seem to understand this, and don't act aggressively when I take the lane--but it's still something that's hard for many people, including me, to do.  The road is one of the biggest mistakes the region has made in road reconstruction in recent memory.

Walking is of course an option, but you're going to convince many fewer people to convert a 5 minute car ride into a 20 minute walk, than you would convince to turn the same car ride into a 5 minute bike ride.

I have often felt that the connections through to Mike Wagner Green could be improved and some real routes built to bypass much of this problem, and I think Peter is not bad, but now you have some topological challenges, the hill is a big challenge to bike up, even walking up it leaves me breathing hard.

Mill is another frustration, but this time from Kitchener, it was rebuilt with zero bike infrastructure shortly after the bike plan designated it a bike route, at the same time, the plan designated Courtland Ave. not a bike route, which means when it was rebuilt, no bike infra there either.

I really have no good ideas about how to fix that area sadly, and it is an area I've brainstormed on.

On the plus side, I will say there were a TON of cyclists out this morning.  On my bike to work I passed at least 30 or 40.  The most I ever remember seeing.


RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - KevinT - 05-08-2018

I biked to work for the first time in probably a decade today.  Some observations:
  • There didn't seem to be any good connection to the Iron Horse Trail from the bike lanes on Manitou.  I illegally biked on Courtland's sidewalks until I was past the expressway.  That road just did NOT feel safe to bike on.
  • No clear cycling detour to get from Victoria to Glasgow with the IHT closed.  Did I miss a sign?
  • No clear path to get from Park to Caroline when the IHT ends.  I crossed Park and used the sidewalk (illegally) to get to Allen, once on Caroline at Allen it's also awfully narrow to bike down but empty enough that I didn't use the sidewalk.
  • Once past William I sheepishly stuck as far to the right side of Caroline as I could, then realized I was probably supposed to be on that MUT-looking thing on the other side of the Ion tracks.  Again, signage to guide me there from the IHT would be great!  (Did I just miss it?)
  • With the promenade through Waterloo Park closed I thought I'd take the forest trail between the ball diamonds and creek to get around.  Its way smaller, more discontiguous, and a heck of a lot muddier than I recalled.  Not doing that again!
  • Even once that trail joined the official cycling detour, the formal trail between the ball diamonds and creek bridge was still quite muddy.  Ugh, grade that ****!
  • The hot dog vendor at University Plaza is back.  I've been going to this guy for hot dogs off and on over the past 20 years as both my job and his 'spot' have moved around.  Great to see him again and it made for a great lunch stop on my route (as I didn't have a packed lunch with me today).
  • I saw no Ion vehicles testing as I rode the trail from the Laurier-Waterloo Park stop to the R&T Park stop.  Alas.
Time now for the ride home...


RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - danbrotherston - 05-08-2018

(05-08-2018, 05:29 PM)KevinT Wrote: I biked to work for the first time in probably a decade today.  Some observations:
  • There didn't seem to be any good connection to the Iron Horse Trail from the bike lanes on Manitou.  I illegally biked on Courtland's sidewalks until I was past the expressway.  That road just did NOT feel safe to bike on.
  • No clear cycling detour to get from Victoria to Glasgow with the IHT closed.  Did I miss a sign?
  • No clear path to get from Park to Caroline when the IHT ends.  I crossed Park and used the sidewalk (illegally) to get to Allen, once on Caroline at Allen it's also awfully narrow to bike down but empty enough that I didn't use the sidewalk.
  • Once past William I sheepishly stuck as far to the right side of Caroline as I could, then realized I was probably supposed to be on that MUT-looking thing on the other side of the Ion tracks.  Again, signage to guide me there from the IHT would be great!  (Did I just miss it?)
  • With the promenade through Waterloo Park closed I thought I'd take the forest trail between the ball diamonds and creek to get around.  Its way smaller, more discontiguous, and a heck of a lot muddier than I recalled.  Not doing that again!
  • Even once that trail joined the official cycling detour, the formal trail between the ball diamonds and creek bridge was still quite muddy.  Ugh, grade that ****!
  • The hot dog vendor at University Plaza is back.  I've been going to this guy for hot dogs off and on over the past 20 years as both my job and his 'spot' have moved around.  Great to see him again and it made for a great lunch stop on my route (as I didn't have a packed lunch with me today).
  • I saw no Ion vehicles testing as I rode the trail from the Laurier-Waterloo Park stop to the R&T Park stop.  Alas.
Time now for the ride home...

Well you picked a great day for a ride!  And that is quite a ride, good for you.

A few thoughts.

Courtland is a nightmare to bike on...don't blame you one bit for taking the sidewalk, I usually do, even on weekends...although even the sidewalk is terrible at points.  I bike this area a fair bit so have figured out a number of different routes which I added to the map below.  Not sure of your specific routes but maybe something helpful in there.  FWIW, it's more or less the route I take down to Cambridge every other weekend or so.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Ss7Yr1p_BjbyLwAN7iZUWltBzswNvU3Y&usp=sharing

There are signs for the detour on the IHT, but they might be missing after the wind.  Too bad, they weren't terrible...unlike the detour.

The lack of signage and continuation of the IHT at Park is a shame, and it's been that way a long time, thank the city of waterloo for selling the trail property to the condo developer, with no clear plan for continuity.  Expect many more years of this.  Park does have a bike lane, but it's not a very good bike lane.

The sidewalk on the west side of Caroline is indeed a MUT, definitely use it, it's better than being on the road, and in fact, the only legal way to actually get into the park as a cyclist (given the left turn prohibition on Caroline and Erb).

The park is a challenge these days, but soon it will be magical...until then the project manager (John Griffin) has been tweeting out daily updates on the status in the park https://twitter.com/uu_john  He's set a new standard in communication of cycling detours...really really good job.

MMmm...hotdogs.


RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - jamincan - 05-08-2018

I definitely wouldn't recommend that red route from Balzer Road to Manitou in its current state. I realize you have it marked as aspirational, just noting it for people who only glance at the map.

My preference through that area is Wilson, but I certainly can understand that not everyone is comfortable on a road like that.


RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - Pheidippides - 05-09-2018

Another option from Courtland, although it is a bit hilly, is to take Carwood/Dixon to the pedestrian bridge over the expressway and the use a combination of Vanier/Massey/Shelley/Wilson park trail to get near Manitou.


RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - danbrotherston - 05-09-2018

(05-08-2018, 10:35 PM)jamincan Wrote: I definitely wouldn't recommend that red route from Balzer Road to Manitou in its current state. I realize you have it marked as aspirational, just noting it for people who only glance at the map.

My preference through that area is Wilson, but I certainly can understand that not everyone is comfortable on a road like that.

Yeah, it's probably good to make it clear that route doesn't exist yet, especially given how promising it looks, before you're dumped into a storm water pond.

I use Wilson sometimes on weekends, even then I find it uncomfortable, I'm only guessing that it's much worse on weekdays/rush-hour.


(05-09-2018, 08:20 AM)Pheidippides Wrote: Another option from Courtland, although it is a bit hilly, is to take Carwood/Dixon to the pedestrian bridge over the expressway and the use a combination of Vanier/Massey/Shelley/Wilson park trail to get near Manitou.

That is another route I hadn't thought of. I've walked over that overpass once, but never biked, it is rather...hidden, but it probably makes a good route. I've marked on the map where I think you're meaning.

Unfortunately, you're still stuck trying to get across Courtland. It is notable, and rather frustrating, that the biggest problems with biking in this area lie on the road that was just rebuilt from scratch, as well as the intersection with a road with a huge cycling project.


RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - Section ThirtyOne - 05-09-2018

(05-08-2018, 07:01 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: The lack of signage and continuation of the IHT at Park is a shame, and it's been that way a long time, thank the city of waterloo for selling the trail property to the condo developer, with no clear plan for continuity.  Expect many more years of this.  Park does have a bike lane, but it's not a very good bike lane.

I was of the impression that the IHT will continue on between the 144 Park and CSR buildings once construction is complete. If that section of the trail was sold off with no plans to reopen it, that's news to me.


RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - danbrotherston - 05-09-2018

(05-09-2018, 09:40 AM)Section ThirtyOne Wrote:
(05-08-2018, 07:01 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: The lack of signage and continuation of the IHT at Park is a shame, and it's been that way a long time, thank the city of waterloo for selling the trail property to the condo developer, with no clear plan for continuity.  Expect many more years of this.  Park does have a bike lane, but it's not a very good bike lane.

I was of the impression that the IHT will continue on between the 144 Park and CSR buildings once construction is complete. If that section of the trail was sold off with no plans to reopen it, that's news to me.

Yes, eventually it will continue...but it's been closed for several years, and will probably continue to be closed for several more years.  That's a pretty big break in continuity.


RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - Section ThirtyOne - 05-09-2018

(05-09-2018, 09:54 AM)danbrotherston Wrote:
(05-09-2018, 09:40 AM)Section ThirtyOne Wrote: I was of the impression that the IHT will continue on between the 144 Park and CSR buildings once construction is complete. If that section of the trail was sold off with no plans to reopen it, that's news to me.

Yes, eventually it will continue...but it's been closed for several years, and will probably continue to be closed for several more years.  That's a pretty big break in continuity.

You're absolutely right, I just wanted to ensure I didn't misunderstand you.