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+--- Thread: Cycling in Waterloo Region (/showthread.php?tid=186)
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RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - danbrotherston - 06-11-2018
(06-11-2018, 07:58 AM)PhilippAchtel Wrote: Wasn't the dropbike trial supposed to start soon? Does anyone know the status of that project? I check the bike share area near the KPL main branch fairly regularly and haven't seen any change.
The launch is expected in July. There are still some details to be finalized about locations.
RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - panamaniac - 06-11-2018
(06-11-2018, 07:14 AM)jamincan Wrote: What did the WRPS share?
I wondered that too. If they've got it wrong, it should be drawn to their and the Region's attention.
RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - Canard - 06-11-2018
A video where they rode on sharrows in DTK and said “always ride as far to the side of the road as you possibly can”.
RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - Pheidippides - 06-11-2018
Oh, it has been flagged to them.
I was hoping to avoid re-sharing the link to avoid perpetuating the mis-information because the positioning advice is so horrible, but here it is:
https://twitter.com/WRPSToday/status/1004364350730141696
What was said:
"ride as far to the right shoulder as possible" while the video shows the officer riding literally on the curb side-by-side with a car in a sharrow lane.
Also, cycling is characterized as a seasonal recreation activity instead of a legitimate year-round mode of transport.
The incorrect positioning was re-iterated in the Record:
"in some areas in the core of Kitchener and Waterloo where there are sharrows, the roadway is "simply too narrow" and cyclists need to get to the right of the road, he said."
Isn't that why it says "single file" on all the streets with sharrows? To avoid motorists trying to squeeze by people cycling?
RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - danbrotherston - 06-11-2018
(06-11-2018, 09:28 AM)Pheidippides Wrote: Oh, it has been flagged to them.
I was hoping to avoid re-sharing the link to avoid perpetuating the mis-information because the positioning advice is so horrible, but here it is:
https://twitter.com/WRPSToday/status/1004364350730141696
What was said:
"ride as far to the right shoulder as possible" while the video shows the officer riding literally on the curb side-by-side with a car in a sharrow lane.
Also, cycling is characterized as a seasonal recreation activity instead of a legitimate year-round mode of transport.
The incorrect positioning was re-iterated in the Record:
"in some areas in the core of Kitchener and Waterloo where there are sharrows, the roadway is "simply too narrow" and cyclists need to get to the right of the road, he said."
Isn't that why it says "single file" on all the streets with sharrows? To avoid motorists trying to squeeze by people cycling?
Yes, at this point, there is no way they have not noticed the social media response, almost a dozen cycling advocates have all responded with the same feedback. I also see officers following their advice.
Yet they reiterate the same response in the record article.
I fear this is not an oversight, but instead an internal policy. Very worrisome.
RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - panamaniac - 06-11-2018
(06-11-2018, 09:28 AM)Pheidippides Wrote: Oh, it has been flagged to them.
I was hoping to avoid re-sharing the link to avoid perpetuating the mis-information because the positioning advice is so horrible, but here it is:
https://twitter.com/WRPSToday/status/1004364350730141696
What was said:
"ride as far to the right shoulder as possible" while the video shows the officer riding literally on the curb side-by-side with a car in a sharrow lane.
Also, cycling is characterized as a seasonal recreation activity instead of a legitimate year-round mode of transport.
The incorrect positioning was re-iterated in the Record:
"in some areas in the core of Kitchener and Waterloo where there are sharrows, the roadway is "simply too narrow" and cyclists need to get to the right of the road, he said."
Isn't that why it says "single file" on all the streets with sharrows? To avoid motorists trying to squeeze by people cycling?
What is the official line on local sharrows? Are cars and bikes expected to proceed in a single row, or are cars expected to look for opportunities to safely get around bikes? I always assumed it was the latter, recognizing that in certain narrow spots with oncoming traffic, the result could be trailing behind a bicycle for some distance (which I have done with no concern on my part). I have on occasion had the experience of a bicyclist pulling over to the curb in such spots to allow cars to pass, but that always struck me as a courtesy rather than anything a motorist should expect. One thing I would never expect as a motorist is that cyclist should move so close to the curb as to put themselves at risk.
RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - KevinL - 06-11-2018
The messaging is particularly poor because the narrower portions of streets are where a bike is most in danger by being passed, and should be encouraged to take the lane (and be permitted to do so by drivers). They are encouraging the opposite of this.
RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - Pheidippides - 06-11-2018
(06-11-2018, 09:37 AM)panamaniac Wrote: What is the official line on local sharrows?
It should not matter if the lane is marked with sharrows or not, the advice for people who cycle and motorists should always be the same.
The positioning advice was bad no matter the situation, sharrows or not, but it is even worse in sharrows context.
The sharrows are just meant to remind people who cycle and motorists that taking the lane is allowable and sometimes the safest option when separated/protected lanes are not an option.
It does not matter whether the road is marked with sharrows or not you can take the lane on any road.
Kitchener's advice for motorists is that single file is encouraged, but:
"Motorists should only pass cyclists when there is enough room to do so safely. A comfortable distance is a minimum of one metre between the motorists and cyclist."
That should probably be updated to reflect the new 1m passing law; i.e. not just "comfortable distance" but "legally required distance".
RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - danbrotherston - 06-11-2018
(06-11-2018, 09:37 AM)panamaniac Wrote:(06-11-2018, 09:28 AM)Pheidippides Wrote: Oh, it has been flagged to them.
I was hoping to avoid re-sharing the link to avoid perpetuating the mis-information because the positioning advice is so horrible, but here it is:
https://twitter.com/WRPSToday/status/1004364350730141696
What was said:
"ride as far to the right shoulder as possible" while the video shows the officer riding literally on the curb side-by-side with a car in a sharrow lane.
Also, cycling is characterized as a seasonal recreation activity instead of a legitimate year-round mode of transport.
The incorrect positioning was re-iterated in the Record:
"in some areas in the core of Kitchener and Waterloo where there are sharrows, the roadway is "simply too narrow" and cyclists need to get to the right of the road, he said."
Isn't that why it says "single file" on all the streets with sharrows? To avoid motorists trying to squeeze by people cycling?
What is the official line on local sharrows? Are cars and bikes expected to proceed in a single row, or are cars expected to look for opportunities to safely get around bikes? I always assumed it was the latter, recognizing that in certain narrow spots with oncoming traffic, the result could be trailing behind a bicycle for some distance (which I have done with no concern on my part). I have on occasion had the experience of a bicyclist pulling over to the curb in such spots to allow cars to pass, but that always struck me as a courtesy rather than anything a motorist should expect. One thing I would never expect as a motorist is that cyclist should move so close to the curb as to put themselves at risk.
The local advice on sharrows (from both Kitchener, and Cambridge, Waterloo makes no specific advice) is that they indicate to cyclists where they should ride and to drivers to expect cyclists to be riding there. This matches MTO design guidance. Now this makes good sense on our roads, where sharrows are almost always in the middle, many towns place the sharrows to the right of lanes that are too narrow for bike lanes, but "wide enough" to "share", which frankly, always bugs me.
As for driver behaviour, I believe drivers are generally permitted to overtake any vehicle when safe to do so, but where sharrows are, there may not be an opportunity for some time--but the cities make no specific statement on this. The location of the filming of the WRPS segment has an additional restriction where there is a "single file" sign indicating that drivers should drive single file with cyclists. I don't know if this is intended to stop overtaking, but it clearly restricts the car who has pulled up beside the officer on the bike in the video. Frankly, they should have stopped filming and ticketed the driver for failure to obey signage.
Ugh...so frustrating.
RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - jamincan - 06-11-2018
I doubt this is a clear internal policy and instead is simply a matter of a lack of a clear internal policy and therefore inconsistent communication on these issues. Taken literally, MTO guidelines say the same thing.
RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - danbrotherston - 06-11-2018
(06-11-2018, 09:57 AM)jamincan Wrote: I doubt this is a clear internal policy and instead is simply a matter of a lack of a clear internal policy and therefore inconsistent communication on these issues. Taken literally, MTO guidelines say the same thing.
Not sure what you mean about the MTO guidelines. The MTO's cycling skills book is explicitly the opposite of what WRPS has stated:
"When your safety warrants it, it is legal for a cyclist to take the whole lane by riding in the centre of the lane. Never compromise your safety for the convenience of a motorist behind you." (Page 19)
"Accordingly, any vehicle moving slower than the normal traffic speed should travel in the right-hand lane, or as close as practicable to the right edge of the road except when preparing to turn left, when passing another vehicle, when going faster than other vehicles or if the lane is too narrow to share." (Page 18)
It directly contradicts the statements by WRPS which include "must keep right" and "on narrow roads especially must keep right".
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/safety/pdfs/cycling-skills.pdf
RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - Canard - 06-11-2018
I think this literally was one dude was like "I'm gonna make a cycling video!" and just did his own thing.
RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - jamincan - 06-11-2018
I remember Cycle Safe Ingersol posted something very similar on their facebook page and got a lot of heat for it; they then pointed to some sort of MTO publication supporting their position. Nevermind that just because it is written down somewhere it doesn't make it safe. Unfortunately, a lot of well-meaning people share stuff like this without necessarily the experience or the knowledge to support their advice and I suspect this is the case here as well.
Keeping as far to the right as you can, seems to make sense - you don't piss drivers off, so they don't act recklessly in turn and politely give you space. If you ride your bike in traffic a lot, you quickly learn is not how people behave. Drivers get pissed off regardless of where you are in the road, so it's better to remain visible and claim your space on the road so they have no choice but to wait for a safe opportunity to pass.
I know that WRPS has engaged with cycling advocacy groups in the past and is generally supportive of the idea of claiming space on the road, which is why this is probably something off-message that slipped through the cracks.
RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - clasher - 06-11-2018
Well the HTA does say any vehicle is to be driven "as close as practicable to the right hand curb or edge of the roadway" so the interpretation of what is practicable seems to be why different people recommend different things. I don't know how sharrows are supposed to legally work with HTA 147.
RE: Cycling in Waterloo Region - danbrotherston - 06-11-2018
(06-11-2018, 03:21 PM)clasher Wrote: Well the HTA does say any vehicle is to be driven "as close as practicable to the right hand curb or edge of the roadway" so the interpretation of what is practicable seems to be why different people recommend different things. I don't know how sharrows are supposed to legally work with HTA 147.
The term "practicable" is clearly laid out in the MTO's additional documentation. I've already posted the relevant citations from the Cycling Skills.
Whether you agree that MTO's additional documents are acceptable to serve as the definition of "practicable", the goal should be safer roads, and the data clearly shows riding in the gutter is not safe, and encourages dangerous behaviour by drivers--as does WRPS's video I'll add. The term "practicable" is general enough to permit the recommendations given by Cycling Skills.
The MTO's books also speak about sharrows. Please don't suggest that it's illegal to ride on the sharrows, as intended by the city.