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General Road and Highway Discussion - Printable Version

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RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - dtkvictim - 07-21-2022

(07-21-2022, 11:23 AM)ijmorlan Wrote: Of course it’s a serious question. You seem to be saying that it is believable that one of those SUV owners might find their property incapacitated and think to themselves something like, ”hmmm, maybe I should get rid of this vehicle; I’m glad those people were so generous as to give me that suggestion”. But in order to believe this, we have to believe that if you found your bike similarly incapacitated you would think similarly kind thoughts about the people who did it.

Now I’m not you, but I’m having trouble believing that you would consider, even for a second, that you were the problem in that situation. So why would you expect those SUV owners to consider the same possibility?

While bike theft isn't entirely analogous, I think it's close enough to prove that at a larger scale these "protests" could have the desired effect. I don't have a single bike I'm willing to lose, and so any trip that would require me to lock my bike outside is a trip I probably won't take by bike. This is despite me being an advocate for cycling and it hasn't changed my mind on the issue it all, but it has still affected my behaviour. In fact, I actually bought a folding bike specifically to make more trips by bike while not having to lock it outside, so it also influenced my purchasing choices.

Obviously the objective of bike thieves isn't to stop people from cycling (probably the opposite, so they can steal more bikes), but the effect is still the same.


RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - Acitta - 07-21-2022

(07-21-2022, 03:30 PM)dtkvictim Wrote:
(07-21-2022, 11:23 AM)ijmorlan Wrote: Of course it’s a serious question. You seem to be saying that it is believable that one of those SUV owners might find their property incapacitated and think to themselves something like, ”hmmm, maybe I should get rid of this vehicle; I’m glad those people were so generous as to give me that suggestion”. But in order to believe this, we have to believe that if you found your bike similarly incapacitated you would think similarly kind thoughts about the people who did it.

Now I’m not you, but I’m having trouble believing that you would consider, even for a second, that you were the problem in that situation. So why would you expect those SUV owners to consider the same possibility?

While bike theft isn't entirely analogous, I think it's close enough to prove that at a larger scale these "protests" could have the desired effect. I don't have a single bike I'm willing to lose, and so any trip that would require me to lock my bike outside is a trip I probably won't take by bike. This is despite me being an advocate for cycling and it hasn't changed my mind on the issue it all, but it has still affected my behaviour. In fact, I actually bought a folding bike specifically to make more trips by bike while not having to lock it outside, so it also influenced my purchasing choices.

Obviously the objective of bike thieves isn't to stop people from cycling (probably the opposite, so they can steal more bikes), but the effect is still the same.

Then how do you get around? Do you take public transit to do your shopping rather than take your bike?


RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - dtkvictim - 07-21-2022

(07-21-2022, 04:22 PM)Acitta Wrote:
(07-21-2022, 03:30 PM)dtkvictim Wrote: While bike theft isn't entirely analogous, I think it's close enough to prove that at a larger scale these "protests" could have the desired effect. I don't have a single bike I'm willing to lose, and so any trip that would require me to lock my bike outside is a trip I probably won't take by bike. This is despite me being an advocate for cycling and it hasn't changed my mind on the issue it all, but it has still affected my behaviour. In fact, I actually bought a folding bike specifically to make more trips by bike while not having to lock it outside, so it also influenced my purchasing choices.

Obviously the objective of bike thieves isn't to stop people from cycling (probably the opposite, so they can steal more bikes), but the effect is still the same.

Then how do you get around? Do you take public transit to do your shopping rather than take your bike?

I'm curious what your approach is. I know you had or have a fairly nice ebike, have you had theft issues? What is your approach?

As for your question: I don't have a simple answer, both for shopping or for general transportation, but generally any of the following
  • Walking, I walk a lot - often hours a day because I enjoy it. Marche Leos, Sobeys, Legacy Greens, Fore Quarter, Kitchener Market are all within daily walking distance from downtown and provide daily needs (Unfortunately no more Full Circle since they moved, been harassed and physically touched too many times, especially my female partner)
  • Bringing my folding bike into the store, though it can't carry more than a couple days worth of food
  • If my partner and I are biking together, one of us may run in while the other waits with the bikes
  • I will bike to friends or workplaces where I can store my bike securely indoors
  • ION when possible (haven't been on a bus in over 3 years though, I just don't enjoy it and will find alternatives)
  • Delivery services
  • Uber/Taxi/Communauto when absolutely required (time sensitive, unsafe alternatives, or moving large amounts of stuff)

I will most likely sell an existing bike to make room for a cheap bike that I don't mind being stolen though - I enjoy biking and it would be liberating to use a bike for even more trips, without the anxiety. I'm also staring down the need to purchase a car for out of city trips (thanks to our abysmal provincial transportation network), so it would probably replace any Uber or car share trips.


RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - Acitta - 07-22-2022

(07-21-2022, 06:38 PM)dtkvictim Wrote:
(07-21-2022, 04:22 PM)Acitta Wrote: Then how do you get around? Do you take public transit to do your shopping rather than take your bike?

I'm curious what your approach is. I know you had or have a fairly nice ebike, have you had theft issues? What is your approach?

As for your question: I don't have a simple answer, both for shopping or for general transportation, but generally any of the following
  • Walking, I walk a lot - often hours a day because I enjoy it. Marche Leos, Sobeys, Legacy Greens, Fore Quarter, Kitchener Market are all within daily walking distance from downtown and provide daily needs (Unfortunately no more Full Circle since they moved, been harassed and physically touched too many times, especially my female partner)
  • Bringing my folding bike into the store, though it can't carry more than a couple days worth of food
  • If my partner and I are biking together, one of us may run in while the other waits with the bikes
  • I will bike to friends or workplaces where I can store my bike securely indoors
  • ION when possible (haven't been on a bus in over 3 years though, I just don't enjoy it and will find alternatives)
  • Delivery services
  • Uber/Taxi/Communauto when absolutely required (time sensitive, unsafe alternatives, or moving large amounts of stuff)

I will most likely sell an existing bike to make room for a cheap bike that I don't mind being stolen though - I enjoy biking and it would be liberating to use a bike for even more trips, without the anxiety. I'm also staring down the need to purchase a car for out of city trips (thanks to our abysmal provincial transportation network), so it would probably replace any Uber or car share trips.

I have had two bikes stolen. One was locked with a poor cable lock under the stairs of the townhouse I was living in. The other was taken from the shed of the house I was living in because a housemate left it open and unlocked. I have never had a bike stolen while shopping, as I don't leave them unattended for more than 10 minutes. These days I mostly ride my ebike which has a wheel lock with accessory chain. If I need to leave it unattended for longer, I have a second heavy-duty lock and chain. My bike is my main transportation. I use it almost every day for shopping, visiting and recreation. I don't worry too much about theft because the places I lock it are relatively safe and have lots of people around (e.g. the strip malls on Highland, the Kitchener Market). I keep my bikes in my apartment when I am home. I use the bus sometimes if I know that I would have to leave the bike unattended for a few hours. If you have a good lock that will take longer to defeat than the time you will be leaving it unattended, then I don't think you have to worry too much. I see lots of bikes locked up with flimsy locks, and the owners don't seem to worry too much about it. Of course, if I had a $10,000 bike I would certainly have one or more diamond rated locks on it.  Bike theft is a serious problem, but 99% of people are not bike thieves.


RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - danbrotherston - 07-22-2022

(07-22-2022, 01:15 AM)Acitta Wrote:
(07-21-2022, 06:38 PM)dtkvictim Wrote: I'm curious what your approach is. I know you had or have a fairly nice ebike, have you had theft issues? What is your approach?

As for your question: I don't have a simple answer, both for shopping or for general transportation, but generally any of the following
  • Walking, I walk a lot - often hours a day because I enjoy it. Marche Leos, Sobeys, Legacy Greens, Fore Quarter, Kitchener Market are all within daily walking distance from downtown and provide daily needs (Unfortunately no more Full Circle since they moved, been harassed and physically touched too many times, especially my female partner)
  • Bringing my folding bike into the store, though it can't carry more than a couple days worth of food
  • If my partner and I are biking together, one of us may run in while the other waits with the bikes
  • I will bike to friends or workplaces where I can store my bike securely indoors
  • ION when possible (haven't been on a bus in over 3 years though, I just don't enjoy it and will find alternatives)
  • Delivery services
  • Uber/Taxi/Communauto when absolutely required (time sensitive, unsafe alternatives, or moving large amounts of stuff)

I will most likely sell an existing bike to make room for a cheap bike that I don't mind being stolen though - I enjoy biking and it would be liberating to use a bike for even more trips, without the anxiety. I'm also staring down the need to purchase a car for out of city trips (thanks to our abysmal provincial transportation network), so it would probably replace any Uber or car share trips.

I have had two bikes stolen. One was locked with a poor cable lock under the stairs of the townhouse I was living in. The other was taken from the shed of the house I was living in because a housemate left it open and unlocked. I have never had a bike stolen while shopping, as I don't leave them unattended for more than 10 minutes. These days I mostly ride my ebike which has a wheel lock with accessory chain. If I need to leave it unattended for longer, I have a second heavy-duty lock and chain. My bike is my main transportation. I use it almost every day for shopping, visiting and recreation. I don't worry too much about theft because the places I lock it are relatively safe and have lots of people around (e.g. the strip malls on Highland, the Kitchener Market). I keep my bikes in my apartment when I am home. I use the bus sometimes if I know that I would have to leave the bike unattended for a few hours. If you have a good lock that will take longer to defeat than the time you will be leaving it unattended, then I don't think you have to worry too much. I see lots of bikes locked up with flimsy locks, and the owners don't seem to worry too much about it. Of course, if I had a $10,000 bike I would certainly have one or more diamond rated locks on it.  Bike theft is a serious problem, but 99% of people are not bike thieves.

This matches my experience. I've had many bikes stolen. Not one has been while it was locked while I was shopping. Overnight, from my house is the most common example.

I figure it's pretty safe, I know lots of people do lock their expensive bikes while shopping, and few have had thefts happen. With a good enough lock (i.e., requiring an angle grinder) most thieves are not going to make an attempt in front of a store....at least in KW.

I'm curious though...for dtkvictim, is your concern about your bike financial or sentimental? If it's financial, my solution to that has been to get insurance. My home insurance covered all my bikes that were stolen (as they were stolen from my home) but I only made a claim when I had many bikes stolen making the deductible worth it. But when I moved here and bought an expensive (relatively...3500 is a lot for a bike for me) ebike I paid for insurance for it.


RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - plam - 07-22-2022

(07-22-2022, 03:58 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: This matches my experience. I've had many bikes stolen. Not one has been while it was locked while I was shopping. Overnight, from my house is the most common example.

I figure it's pretty safe, I know lots of people do lock their expensive bikes while shopping, and few have had thefts happen. With a good enough lock (i.e., requiring an angle grinder) most thieves are not going to make an attempt in front of a store....at least in KW.

Yeah, when we had no garage and left our bikes outside, sometimes they went missing (or parts thereof). Inside the garage has been pretty good. I also don't ride a super expensive bike around town, though I guess replacing it would be somewhat annoying these days.


RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - dtkvictim - 07-22-2022

(07-22-2022, 03:58 AM)danbrotherston Wrote:
(07-22-2022, 01:15 AM)Acitta Wrote: I have had two bikes stolen. One was locked with a poor cable lock under the stairs of the townhouse I was living in. The other was taken from the shed of the house I was living in because a housemate left it open and unlocked. I have never had a bike stolen while shopping, as I don't leave them unattended for more than 10 minutes. These days I mostly ride my ebike which has a wheel lock with accessory chain. If I need to leave it unattended for longer, I have a second heavy-duty lock and chain. My bike is my main transportation. I use it almost every day for shopping, visiting and recreation. I don't worry too much about theft because the places I lock it are relatively safe and have lots of people around (e.g. the strip malls on Highland, the Kitchener Market). I keep my bikes in my apartment when I am home. I use the bus sometimes if I know that I would have to leave the bike unattended for a few hours. If you have a good lock that will take longer to defeat than the time you will be leaving it unattended, then I don't think you have to worry too much. I see lots of bikes locked up with flimsy locks, and the owners don't seem to worry too much about it. Of course, if I had a $10,000 bike I would certainly have one or more diamond rated locks on it.  Bike theft is a serious problem, but 99% of people are not bike thieves.

This matches my experience. I've had many bikes stolen. Not one has been while it was locked while I was shopping. Overnight, from my house is the most common example.

I figure it's pretty safe, I know lots of people do lock their expensive bikes while shopping, and few have had thefts happen. With a good enough lock (i.e., requiring an angle grinder) most thieves are not going to make an attempt in front of a store....at least in KW.

I'm curious though...for dtkvictim, is your concern about your bike financial or sentimental? If it's financial, my solution to that has been to get insurance. My home insurance covered all my bikes that were stolen (as they were stolen from my home) but I only made a claim when I had many bikes stolen making the deductible worth it. But when I moved here and bought an expensive (relatively...3500 is a lot for a bike for me) ebike I paid for insurance for it.

I'd say it's 50/50 financial and sentimental. I would be emotionally bummed out, and though I could luckily afford to replace them, a sudden expense in the thousands of dollars still hurts. Are you saying you have separate insurance specifically for your bike? I didn't realize that was an option, unless you mean this is something in the Netherlands.

But those anecdotes are reassuring. I store my bikes indoors, and I do have a reasonable Kryptonite u-lock and cable combo for locking in public, so maybe I shouldn't worry so much for quick stops. I think a dedicated bike whose purpose is to get stolen would put my mind completely at ease, though.


RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - danbrotherston - 07-23-2022

(07-22-2022, 06:08 PM)dtkvictim Wrote:
(07-22-2022, 03:58 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: This matches my experience. I've had many bikes stolen. Not one has been while it was locked while I was shopping. Overnight, from my house is the most common example.

I figure it's pretty safe, I know lots of people do lock their expensive bikes while shopping, and few have had thefts happen. With a good enough lock (i.e., requiring an angle grinder) most thieves are not going to make an attempt in front of a store....at least in KW.

I'm curious though...for dtkvictim, is your concern about your bike financial or sentimental? If it's financial, my solution to that has been to get insurance. My home insurance covered all my bikes that were stolen (as they were stolen from my home) but I only made a claim when I had many bikes stolen making the deductible worth it. But when I moved here and bought an expensive (relatively...3500 is a lot for a bike for me) ebike I paid for insurance for it.

I'd say it's 50/50 financial and sentimental. I would be emotionally bummed out, and though I could luckily afford to replace them, a sudden expense in the thousands of dollars still hurts. Are you saying you have separate insurance specifically for your bike? I didn't realize that was an option, unless you mean this is something in the Netherlands.

But those anecdotes are reassuring. I store my bikes indoors, and I do have a reasonable Kryptonite u-lock and cable combo for locking in public, so maybe I shouldn't worry so much for quick stops. I think a dedicated bike whose purpose is to get stolen would put my mind completely at ease, though.

Yes, separate insurance for my bike is available here, and that's what I did get. It's kind of interesting. You pay a lump sum when you buy the bike and then it's covered for a term (1 to 5, years) against theft, and if stolen, it's replaced as new.

In Canada you can get additional coverage for bikes as part of your home insurance policy because the maximums are kind of low for a cargo bike or an expensive road bike. And that will cover you even when not in the home (at least for TD insurance). (Fortunately in my case I don't really have expensive bikes, just...you know...a lot of them).

In Canada you can also get bicycle specific liability and loss insurance, this is most often done in the context of racing (it's often required to race) and you are covered for damage and injuries and crashes and such, but most of these insurance companies will also cover you for all harms, theft, fire, etc. While this may bother some of us in this forum, it's more or less just a form of insurance on recreational vehicles like ATVs or skidoos.

The sacrificial bike is definitely a viable option though. None of my bikes were worth claiming on insurance with the deductible. It only became worth it to make a claim when I had four bike stolen...which definitely made me sad. They were stolen from inside our building, but that was a major break in and a dozen people suffered thefts during the course of the night, it's kind of a difficult thing to protect against.


RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - ac3r - 07-24-2022

The idiots deflating tires hit another 45 cars in Waterloo: https://www.therecord.com/news/waterloo-region/2022/07/23/another-45-suvs-have-tires-deflated-this-time-in-beechwood-neighbourhood-in-waterloo.html

Can't wait for these fools to get caught. Nothing wrong with climate activism and direct action but they are not directing it at the right people.


RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - danbrotherston - 07-24-2022

(07-24-2022, 11:51 AM)ac3r Wrote: The idiots deflating tires hit another 45 cars in Waterloo: https://www.therecord.com/news/waterloo-region/2022/07/23/another-45-suvs-have-tires-deflated-this-time-in-beechwood-neighbourhood-in-waterloo.html

Can't wait for these fools to get caught. Nothing wrong with climate activism and direct action but they are not directing it at the right people.

People who drive excessively large and dangerous vehicles aren’t contributing to climate change?

I love how bike theft is an ever present obstacle to cycling but the pitch forks only come out for non destructive, non violent action against cars.  Really reveals the priorities.


RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - ac3r - 07-24-2022

The problem is they're going after vehicles that are already owned and on the road. Do they think these owners are going to sell their vehicle because their tires were deflated? Certainly not.

If direct action is what they want to do, go after the people that make the cars, that sell the cars, that fuel the cars. This is just nonsensical theatre for attention. It isn't going to change anything. It just annoys people. It is also more likely to make people not take environmental activism seriously.


RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - danbrotherston - 07-24-2022

(07-24-2022, 05:28 PM)ac3r Wrote: The problem is they're going after vehicles that are already owned and on the road. Do they think these owners are going to sell their vehicle because their tires were deflated? Certainly not.

If direct action is what they want to do, go after the people that make the cars, that sell the cars, that fuel the cars. This is just nonsensical theatre for attention. It isn't going to change anything. It just annoys people. It is also more likely to make people not take environmental activism seriously.

Contrary to popular belief if we stop the companies that make fuel and SUVs we in fact will also have to stop driving vehicles.


RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - jamincan - 07-24-2022

(07-24-2022, 04:06 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: I love how bike theft is an ever present obstacle to cycling but the pitch forks only come out for non destructive, non violent action against cars.  Really reveals the priorities.

Give me a break; can you argue in good faith with the people you disagree with instead of disingenuous nonsense like this for a change? I've yet to have heard of a coordinated anti-bike crusade going around vandalizing bikes and you can bet I'd pull out my pitchfork if there was.

Many people here are opposed to high speed limits and excessively large vehicles, are concerned about climate change and *also* think that this action is bad. I'm opposed to these people because they poison the well for engagement that I think was actually making real progress.


RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - danbrotherston - 07-24-2022

(07-24-2022, 05:46 PM)jamincan Wrote:
(07-24-2022, 04:06 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: I love how bike theft is an ever present obstacle to cycling but the pitch forks only come out for non destructive, non violent action against cars.  Really reveals the priorities.

Give me a break; can you argue in good faith with the people you disagree with instead of disingenuous nonsense like this for a change? I've yet to have heard of a coordinated anti-bike crusade going around vandalizing bikes and you can bet I'd pull out my pitchfork if there was.

Many people here are opposed to high speed limits and excessively large vehicles, are concerned about climate change and *also* think that this action is bad. I'm opposed to these people because they poison the well for engagement that I think was actually making real progress.

Bike theft absolutely is co-ordinated and well established. This is why they often find basements full of stolen bikes (usually when investigating other crimes). These people know how to steal bikes, fence bikes, parts, etc, they have distribution channels etc. This isn't a small time operation or petty theft. This is well known to the police.

Now you're saying that if those people were anti-bike instead of just profiteering you'd be all over it?

No, to be generous, we tolerate bike theft, and get angry at is protest because one is normalised and the other is not.

It's clear folks here are mostly opposed to this action. But I also think you are wrong to assume that it poisons the well for engagement. I linked the video before...here it is again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dh4G1Gjv7bA&ab_channel=PhilosophyTube

Or more to the point, anyone for whom having their tires deflated "poisons" was already poisoned. Everything in context...they are doing something to a vehicle that is non-destructive and non-violent something most vehicle owners will experience many times through random chance (and more destructively at that)....anyone who experiences this and hates the people who did it so much that they are entirely unwilling to listen to any thing more are not going to be people who are willing to listen to the idea that they should not drive their vehicle in the city because it is the very message that is threatening to them...not the method of sending it.


RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - SammyOES - 07-25-2022

(07-24-2022, 06:30 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: Or more to the point, anyone for whom having their tires deflated "poisons" was already poisoned. Everything in context...they are doing something to a vehicle that is non-destructive and non-violent something most vehicle owners will experience many times through random chance (and more destructively at that)....anyone who experiences this and hates the people who did it so much that they are entirely unwilling to listen to any thing more are not going to be people who are willing to listen to the idea that they should not drive their vehicle in the city because it is the very message that is threatening to them...not the method of sending it.

This is nonsense and you seem to have a pretty poor view of how humans actually react to things like this and issues like this.

Peoples opinions on issues like climate change aren’t binary. It’s not “you’re our ally or you’re our enemy”. The biggest problem for climate change is getting people to care and to demand action from our governments to address - even when those actions are going to hurt our individual standard of livings (by internalizing the cost of climate change).

This ridiculous approach is not going to help us do that! It’s going to drive people to demand more funding for police (which is bad in itself and also leads to support for parties that have worse climate change policies). It’s going to turn people off of “environmentalists” and be less likely to be convinced on other important climate change policies. People are not going to want to be associated with these morons and will be less likely to talk about necessary climate change policies with friends and families. And so on and so on.

All for the perceived benefit of convincing people SUVs are bad - when they’re not even close to the biggest problem in climate change. It’s a weird tiny symptom that they’re trying to target in a super ineffective way. Like is success just people trading SUVs for hybrid vans or cars? Some fairy tale scenario where all SUVs turn into fully electric cars isn’t going to make more than a dent in greenhouse emissions.