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+--- Thread: Trails (/showthread.php?tid=378)
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RE: Trails - Markster - 08-31-2017
(08-31-2017, 03:23 PM)Canard Wrote: How does the Weber St. refuge compare to Columbia (Laurel Trail) and University (Forwell Trail & Laurel Trail)? Those are the ones I use the most. They don't feel very large.
This new Weber one is smaller than both of those.
Columbia used to be larger, before ION construction. It even had the concrete flush with the pavement, no curb. I was not pleased with the rebuild.
RE: Trails - ijmorlan - 08-31-2017
(08-31-2017, 02:20 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:(08-31-2017, 02:13 PM)tomh009 Wrote: What protects pedestrians on a sidewalk if a vehicle hits it at 50 km/h, 70 km/h or 100 km/h? Exactly the same as for an island. What would you like, a concrete wall? Won't someone please think of the children?
So it does seem it meets the minimum of the OTM at least. I agree that it should be wider, but the hyperbole does get to be a bit much at times.
What hyberbole?
As for a sidewalk, there is a boulevard between the sidewalk and the road. In fact, even the region has acknowledged that a curb faced sidewalk is not preferred, and wouldn't build one if it were possible to avoid. In this case, it was entirely possible to avoid having such a narrow island. So why was it build this way?
Curb faced sidewalks are similarly unpleasant, but even curb faced sidewalks don't generally put you within 10 cm of the roadway.
Also, sidewalks only have a road on one side of them. If necessary, it’s usually perfectly safe to jump away from the road. If you try that with this very narrow island, you’re liable to end up in the other direction traffic.
Yet another planning fail. What they should do at these locations is specifically narrow the traffic lanes and paint it weird so drivers slow down. Also the traffic island should be protected by massive concrete bollards that would stop a concrete truck going 70km/h. Pedestrians deserve not to have to worry about vehicles careening into the space created for their safety.
Ok, maybe the bit about the bollards is slightly exaggerated, since I don’t actually know how massive a bollard would have to be to accomplish that, but the basic idea is there.
RE: Trails - danbrotherston - 08-31-2017
This is much narrower than Columbia or University, and narrower still even than Queen.
RE: Trails - Markster - 08-31-2017
(08-31-2017, 01:51 PM)Pheidippides Wrote: Where is Markster's tape measure (a la Queen and Charles) when we need it? :-)
No tape measure, but here's a bike for scale:
Weber St Laurel crossing island, this time with a bike for scale.
— Mark Jackson-Brown (@Markster3000) August 31, 2017
I would charitably describe this as "snug". pic.twitter.com/gooAM5bmSj
It's definitely snug. There's more space for multiple bikes on the island than it seemed at first.
The cars are spooked a little into slowing down at the sight of a person in the middle of the road. Ideally, there would be bollards installed on the ends. I suspect they will just get the standard "keep right" signposts, like you see on these islands in other places, such as Philip St.
RE: Trails - danbrotherston - 08-31-2017
(08-31-2017, 06:50 PM)Markster Wrote:(08-31-2017, 01:51 PM)Pheidippides Wrote: Where is Markster's tape measure (a la Queen and Charles) when we need it? :-)
No tape measure, but here's a bike for scale:
Weber St Laurel crossing island, this time with a bike for scale.
— Mark Jackson-Brown (@Markster3000) August 31, 2017
I would charitably describe this as "snug". pic.twitter.com/gooAM5bmSj
It's definitely snug. There's more space for multiple bikes on the island than it seemed at first.
The cars are spooked a little into slowing down at the sight of a person in the middle of the road. Ideally, there would be bollards installed on the ends. I suspect they will just get the standard "keep right" signposts, like you see on these islands in other places, such as Philip St.
Lol, okay, so which one is worse, the one on Phillip St. is almost more insulting because there is actually 3 meters of space (a whole lane) but they only built it tiny.
I can do nothing but shake my head at this point.
Given the apparent size next to a bike, it really looks like less than 2 meters.
RE: Trails - timc - 08-31-2017
I took some pictures this evening as well. Here are photos where the Laurel Trail crosses University Avenue West, Columbia Street, Weber Street, and University Avenue East. For comparison, my bike is approximately 65"/165 cm from end to end.
Columbia Street:
![[Image: oof9kdi.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/oof9kdi.jpg)
University Avenue West:
![[Image: Sa4UEay.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/Sa4UEay.jpg)
Weber Street:
![[Image: YpPUwYT.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/YpPUwYT.jpg)
University Avenue East:
![[Image: WvjQtty.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/WvjQtty.jpg)
The crossing at Weber wasn't *quite* as narrow as I was thinking, but there is barely room to fit my bike across the island. On the other hand, it does have sloped sides where one could theoretically turn sideways temporarily, which is different from University East.
I think University West has the widest island.
RE: Trails - danbrotherston - 08-31-2017
@timc Do you think University Ave. West is wider than Columbia?
In any case, at least they get that right, University Ave. is, by a huge margin, the busiest.
RE: Trails - Pheidippides - 08-31-2017
(08-31-2017, 02:13 PM)tomh009 Wrote: What protects pedestrians on a sidewalk if a vehicle hits it at 50 km/h, 70 km/h or 100 km/h? Exactly the same as for an island. What would you like, a concrete wall? Won't someone please think of the children?
1) Someone already mentioned that there is no safe place to, quickly, if you do need to avoid vehicle hitting the island.
2) The regional preferred width for curbs 50cm; these curbs are much narrower (20cm? which would be equal to the regional minimum width).
3) Hard to tell for sure, especially until the final asphalt is down, but the curbs also look lower than a curb at the side of a road.
4) Most sidewalks now are built with a landscaped or hardscaped buffer of at least 50cm between the sidewalk and the road.
5) Another difference is that on a sidewalk you are travelling parallel to traffic and in a crossing you are travelling perpendicular to traffic; the number of potential interactions is far greater.
Other safety measures that could have easily been taken:
1) Lower the speed limit in this section to at least 50 from the current 60.
2) Narrow the lanes.
3) Crosswalk markings/signage.
RE: Trails - tomh009 - 08-31-2017
If you are at a crosswalk, waiting to cross (exactly like you would be on the island) you will be exactly the same distance from the traffic lanes. And even if there is a 1m boulevard separating you from the traffic, consider that even at 50 km/h a car will be traveling approximately 14 m/s. That's fourteen metres in one second, or a 1m boulevard in 0.07 second, much less time than it takes you to blink an eye.
Quite a long time ago, I did motor racing photography. This was from the trackside, but safety is extremely important at race tracks, and they will not let you stand somewhere separated from the track just by 1m -- or even 20m -- of grass, even at a low-speed section. It simply offers no substantial safety. Armco barriers, concrete barriers, yes, but not grass. Or even a single concrete bollard. E = mv^2, and a moving car has a lot of energy.
My point is simply that standing at the curb or on a sidewalk is not substantially safer than standing on an island.
This island is too narrow, there would have been room to make it wider, and it really isn't necessary to invent any additional fantastic claims to make that true.
Anyway, I expect that I have said more than enough on this topic. Enjoy.
RE: Trails - rangersfan - 09-02-2017
This is one of the reasons Berry makes a great mayor, when referencing the proposed IHT to Transit Hub trail.
“We’d never build a road for cars like this and expect them to go meandering through several neighbourhoods,” said Kitchener Mayor Berry Vrbanovic at the planning and public works committee meeting on Aug. 22. “I’m struggling to figure out why we think it’s OK to build a road like this for cyclists and pedestrians.”
https://www.kitchenerpost.ca/news-story/7519149-regional-councillors-divided-on-how-to-connect-iron-horse-trail-to-transit-hub/
RE: Trails - Markster - 09-02-2017
(08-31-2017, 10:43 PM)tomh009 Wrote: My point is simply that standing at the curb or on a sidewalk is not substantially safer than standing on an island.
There is a difference, that makes the sidewalk marginally safer.
Here's a diagram of Weber St, a bit further north.
I've added in an imaginary pedestrian island.
The two green dots represent people, one on the sidewalk and one on the island.
The red rectangles the path of cars, drifting the same slight angle out of their lane.
The pedestrian on the sidewalk has one additional safety feature that the one on the island does not have, and that is the sidewalk curb. Curbs are designed specifically to prevent cars from mounting the sidewalk at these slight angles. The car will graze the curb and correct. The person on the island is almost certainly going to be killed because the car will have no feedback from the road design until they are driving straight over the island.
RE: Trails - danbrotherston - 09-02-2017
@Markster That's in addition to all the other safety features a sidewalk has (boulevard and option of jumping out of the path of the car) that the island doesn't have.
And for a bit of perspective, the distance you showed there is about 50 meters, or about 2 seconds into a text message at 70 km/h.
RE: Trails - plam - 09-02-2017
(09-02-2017, 05:51 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: @Markster That's in addition to all the other safety features a sidewalk has (boulevard and option of jumping out of the path of the car) that the island doesn't have.
And for a bit of perspective, the distance you showed there is about 50 meters, or about 2 seconds into a text message at 70 km/h.
I should say that while I agree that the island should be wider, a proper consideration of the safety of the island also takes into account the smaller time that a person spends on the island vs. on the sidewalk. Not that it meets standard, but it's slightly less terrible than from just considering its width.
RE: Trails - nms - 09-05-2017
Heaven help anyone using most of the islands depicted here who is pulling a bike trailer or a wagon.
RE: Trails - goggolor - 09-08-2017
John Griffin (City of Waterloo Transportation Manager) just posted that the Waterloo Park Central Promenade construction (and thus associated bike detour) will begin September 18th:
Construction Notice: Central Promenade Trail and Bridge Construction will commence September 18th through Waterloo Park.
— John Griffin (@uu_john) September 8, 2017
Thank you.