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General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - Printable Version

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RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - clasher - 06-29-2020

I can't imagine any of the malls were exactly bustling on sunday nights pre-covid.


RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - dtkvictim - 06-29-2020

(06-29-2020, 09:24 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: There is literally no possible downtown theater that will attract suburban folks who want free parking, and are scared of downtown. The point is, there is a theater downtown, and it's great for us downtown folks, and folks who want a downtown experience, rather than a drive to suburban mall experience.

I don't even think there's value in trying to attract a suburban car dependent crowd to downtown, all they will do is clog the roads, demand free parking, and generally complain about downtown. Those who want a downtown experience will come here, or live here, or live on transit, those who want a suburban mall experience will never enjoy downtown. And there's nothing wrong with that, we have an abundance of suburbia for them to enjoy. What we lack is an abundance of downtown style living, but we are growing it.  And I don't mean to exclude people outside of downtown--there are many other areas outside of DTK where people may can live an urban--car light style of living.  I do mean to exclude people who are entierly dependent on their car for getting around.  If you want to use a car to go to the movie theater, you will probably be happier at cineplex every time. But if you don't want to use a car to get to the theater, going to cineplex is unpleasant and scary, I'm very glad that we have alternatives now.  Realistically though, nobody is being excluded, there is tons of parking downtown (too much in my opinion), and it's too easily (also in my opinion) accessible by car. People who want to come downtown, have no problem doing so. But so many people don't want to, so why should we try to attract them--we can only do so by ruining the experience that makes an urban area pleasant and unique to those who want that.

The original question was that downtown is lacking things, I think it's been explained very clearly by myself and many others that most of the things people think are missing, are in fact here...the fact that they don't replicate the suburban mall experience is a feature, not a problem.

I agree there probably are retail segments missing from downtown, but I am frequently surprised that when I think of something that is missing, I can often find a small business which actually fills that niche, but I do have to look.

I made my reply in reference to "If not, how many more years do you think it will take before DTK becomes a bustling area?", which I don't think can be done without attracting people from outside the core.

I did not suggest rolling out the asphalt carpet for drivers, I'm suggesting that core should have businesses, an environment, and overall experience that are exceptional enough to come downtown despite having an unwelcoming environment for cars. I think, with the exception of some restaurants and the occasional event, the core is not attractive in any of those areas (and this is with a quite welcoming vehicular environment, some both of us hope to see change). I'm aware my posts about DTK come across as quite negative, but I make them from the point of view of expecting improvement, and having experienced cities so much better that I felt depressed upon returning to DTK. I want Kitchener to be that good.

Your comments about not wanting car-dependent undesirables in your part of the city is quite offensive too, seeing as it's not a choice for most people, and it's a privilege to live somewhere in Canada that you don't need to depend on a car.

Also, being able to point out a business that fits a niche exists is just the bare minimum... It says nothing about the quality of that business.


RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - danbrotherston - 06-29-2020

(06-29-2020, 10:40 PM)dtkvictim Wrote:
(06-29-2020, 09:24 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: There is literally no possible downtown theater that will attract suburban folks who want free parking, and are scared of downtown. The point is, there is a theater downtown, and it's great for us downtown folks, and folks who want a downtown experience, rather than a drive to suburban mall experience.

I don't even think there's value in trying to attract a suburban car dependent crowd to downtown, all they will do is clog the roads, demand free parking, and generally complain about downtown. Those who want a downtown experience will come here, or live here, or live on transit, those who want a suburban mall experience will never enjoy downtown. And there's nothing wrong with that, we have an abundance of suburbia for them to enjoy. What we lack is an abundance of downtown style living, but we are growing it.  And I don't mean to exclude people outside of downtown--there are many other areas outside of DTK where people may can live an urban--car light style of living.  I do mean to exclude people who are entierly dependent on their car for getting around.  If you want to use a car to go to the movie theater, you will probably be happier at cineplex every time. But if you don't want to use a car to get to the theater, going to cineplex is unpleasant and scary, I'm very glad that we have alternatives now.  Realistically though, nobody is being excluded, there is tons of parking downtown (too much in my opinion), and it's too easily (also in my opinion) accessible by car. People who want to come downtown, have no problem doing so. But so many people don't want to, so why should we try to attract them--we can only do so by ruining the experience that makes an urban area pleasant and unique to those who want that.

The original question was that downtown is lacking things, I think it's been explained very clearly by myself and many others that most of the things people think are missing, are in fact here...the fact that they don't replicate the suburban mall experience is a feature, not a problem.

I agree there probably are retail segments missing from downtown, but I am frequently surprised that when I think of something that is missing, I can often find a small business which actually fills that niche, but I do have to look.

I made my reply in reference to "If not, how many more years do you think it will take before DTK becomes a bustling area?", which I don't think can be done without attracting people from outside the core.

I did not suggest rolling out the asphalt carpet for drivers, I'm suggesting that core should have businesses, an environment, and overall experience that are exceptional enough to come downtown despite having an unwelcoming environment for cars. I think, with the exception of some restaurants and the occasional event, the core is not attractive in any of those areas (and this is with a quite welcoming vehicular environment, some both of us hope to see change). I'm aware my posts about DTK come across as quite negative, but I make them from the point of view of expecting improvement, and having experienced cities so much better that I felt depressed upon returning to DTK. I want Kitchener to be that good.

Your comments about not wanting car-dependent undesirables in your part of the city is quite offensive too, seeing as it's not a choice for most people, and it's a privilege to live somewhere in Canada that you don't need to depend on a car.

Also, being able to point out a business that fits a niche exists is just the bare minimum... It says nothing about the quality of that business.

You can find it offensive that I don't want to destroy our city in order to cater to those who don't want to come downtown anyway, if that's your opinion, but I will restate my comment again, because while I was very careful with my words the first time, I don't want to be missunderstood...some people do not like downtown and never will, they don't want a lively urban area, for whatever reason they prefer a suburban mall. I don't understand it, but I respect it as their preference.

In my opinion, attempting to make downtown desireable to these people can only destroy our downtown, it can never improve it. I am not talking about privilege, I am talking about preference, our city is increasingly accessible by other means, and as I pointed out, there is no restriction whatsoever on driving downtown right now, those who want this experience, can get here if they can get anywhere. I am speaking of the goals of downtown, to try and make it more attractive to those who don't want an urban feel, will necessitate loosing that urban experience. That's what we've been doing for decades, it's time to go the other way, and if done at the same time as expanding housing in transit friendly areas, and expanding transit options in other areas, nobody who wants a downtown experience is excluded.

Instead by attempting to create a suburban mall experience downtown, those of us who DO want a downtown experience are the ones who are excluded.


RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - Spokes - 06-30-2020

Ya like others have said, COVID isn't doing any favours. I think it's unfair to make a judgement right now. June 2019, maybe, June 2020, nah


RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - neonjoe - 06-30-2020

(06-12-2015, 10:17 AM)Owen Wrote:
(06-12-2015, 09:47 AM)BuildingScout Wrote: I'm afraid that even then it won't be enough, judging from other urban examples. We are going from 0 buildings to 1 (Kaufman) to 3 (Kaufman+One Victoria+City Centre) so while the increase sounds like a lot, density is still extremely low in that area as far as downtown urban districts are concerned. We will need the other City Centre tower as well as the two towers in One Hundred Victoria before we start seeing critical mass. The transit hub will help a lot as the fact that a trip to downtown will be a breeze away when the LRT is in place. Then we'll see a clear pickup.

This brings up my biggest issue with the LRT - "a trip downtown is a breeze away when the LRT is in place"  ... for who??  Maybe a few folks who happen to live around the line, but not for most residents of the city (and by most I mean everyone in Wards 1, 2, 6, 7, and 8).  I understand the planning rationale for creating a corridor that induces development (and a long-term shift in population from the suburbs to condos along that corridor), but I really wish the LRT as more useful for more existing residents - meaning it had lines that extended out into the existing suburbs to the east and west and made it easy for people to come downtown as a destination.  I get it - that was way out of the budget - but presently I have a hard time seeing how the LRT would help me get anywhere I want to go (have you ever found yourself on King street saying "gee, I really wish I could hope on a train and get to uptown waterloo?")  ... most of the city's residents (again, everyone in Ward 1, 2, 6, 7, and 8) live outside walking distance from the LRT, which means they will have to keep driving everywhere they want to go.   

Since the province is now providing 100% funding for this sort of thing we should be lobbying for a Phase II LRT that adds loops from the outer areas into the core to augment the main line!

(06-29-2020, 11:32 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:
(06-29-2020, 10:40 PM)dtkvictim Wrote: I made my reply in reference to "If not, how many more years do you think it will take before DTK becomes a bustling area?", which I don't think can be done without attracting people from outside the core.

I did not suggest rolling out the asphalt carpet for drivers, I'm suggesting that core should have businesses, an environment, and overall experience that are exceptional enough to come downtown despite having an unwelcoming environment for cars. I think, with the exception of some restaurants and the occasional event, the core is not attractive in any of those areas (and this is with a quite welcoming vehicular environment, some both of us hope to see change). I'm aware my posts about DTK come across as quite negative, but I make them from the point of view of expecting improvement, and having experienced cities so much better that I felt depressed upon returning to DTK. I want Kitchener to be that good.

Your comments about not wanting car-dependent undesirables in your part of the city is quite offensive too, seeing as it's not a choice for most people, and it's a privilege to live somewhere in Canada that you don't need to depend on a car.

Also, being able to point out a business that fits a niche exists is just the bare minimum... It says nothing about the quality of that business.

You can find it offensive that I don't want to destroy our city in order to cater to those who don't want to come downtown anyway, if that's your opinion, but I will restate my comment again, because while I was very careful with my words the first time, I don't want to be missunderstood...some people do not like downtown and never will, they don't want a lively urban area, for whatever reason they prefer a suburban mall. I don't understand it, but I respect it as their preference.

In my opinion, attempting to make downtown desireable to these people can only destroy our downtown, it can never improve it. I am not talking about privilege, I am talking about preference, our city is increasingly accessible by other means, and as I pointed out, there is no restriction whatsoever on driving downtown right now, those who want this experience, can get here if they can get anywhere. I am speaking of the goals of downtown, to try and make it more attractive to those who don't want an urban feel, will necessitate loosing that urban experience. That's what we've been doing for decades, it's time to go the other way, and if done at the same time as expanding housing in transit friendly areas, and expanding transit options in other areas, nobody who wants a downtown experience is excluded.

Instead by attempting to create a suburban mall experience downtown, those of us who DO want a downtown experience are the ones who are excluded.
Agreed ... the suburban mall idea was already tried in the 70s to revitalize downtown. These changes set our downtown even further back.
The current downtown is the best it has been during my lifetime and I've lived in Kitchener my entire life. Judging it based on how it appears due to covid isn't fair. Last summer going to events like the Multicultural festival or visiting Abe Erb on the weekend really showed how far it has come.


RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - tomh009 - 06-30-2020

Some renovations on the ground (retail) floor of 102 Queen St S, and all (tidied-up) units are now available for rent. The same black siding is going onto 88 Queen St S as well -- same owner?

   


RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - dtkvictim - 06-30-2020

(06-29-2020, 11:32 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:
(06-29-2020, 10:40 PM)dtkvictim Wrote: I made my reply in reference to "If not, how many more years do you think it will take before DTK becomes a bustling area?", which I don't think can be done without attracting people from outside the core.

I did not suggest rolling out the asphalt carpet for drivers, I'm suggesting that core should have businesses, an environment, and overall experience that are exceptional enough to come downtown despite having an unwelcoming environment for cars. I think, with the exception of some restaurants and the occasional event, the core is not attractive in any of those areas (and this is with a quite welcoming vehicular environment, some both of us hope to see change). I'm aware my posts about DTK come across as quite negative, but I make them from the point of view of expecting improvement, and having experienced cities so much better that I felt depressed upon returning to DTK. I want Kitchener to be that good.

Your comments about not wanting car-dependent undesirables in your part of the city is quite offensive too, seeing as it's not a choice for most people, and it's a privilege to live somewhere in Canada that you don't need to depend on a car.

Also, being able to point out a business that fits a niche exists is just the bare minimum... It says nothing about the quality of that business.

You can find it offensive that I don't want to destroy our city in order to cater to those who don't want to come downtown anyway, if that's your opinion, but I will restate my comment again, because while I was very careful with my words the first time, I don't want to be missunderstood...some people do not like downtown and never will, they don't want a lively urban area, for whatever reason they prefer a suburban mall. I don't understand it, but I respect it as their preference.

In my opinion, attempting to make downtown desireable to these people can only destroy our downtown, it can never improve it. I am not talking about privilege, I am talking about preference, our city is increasingly accessible by other means, and as I pointed out, there is no restriction whatsoever on driving downtown right now, those who want this experience, can get here if they can get anywhere. I am speaking of the goals of downtown, to try and make it more attractive to those who don't want an urban feel, will necessitate loosing that urban experience. That's what we've been doing for decades, it's time to go the other way, and if done at the same time as expanding housing in transit friendly areas, and expanding transit options in other areas, nobody who wants a downtown experience is excluded.

Instead by attempting to create a suburban mall experience downtown, those of us who DO want a downtown experience are the ones who are excluded.
That's not what I'm trying to say. When you are talking car dependent people, the first thing that comes to mind are those are don't have a choice, not those who do. But I understand how you could have meant the opposite. Thus my comment about privilege. So to be clear: I'm not suggesting that DTK caters to cars (or even maintains the status quo).

I think having outside visitors to downtown is a good thing, and right now there is very little reason for people to visit outside of work since they can get most of the same mediocre experiences elsewhere. So again, I'm not suggesting that we make it easier for them to drive down (I want the opposite of that), I'm suggesting that the downtown experience needs to get far, far better so that people will want to visit despite not being able to take their car as conveniently (or at all). Hopefully an increased population density is enough to encourage better businesses, but there are other aspects that governments of all levels need to work on.


RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - Momo26 - 07-02-2020

Man I have so much to say on the topic but don't feel like developing a strain to my thumbs using my phone here.

As many know, I'm a sort of ambassador of hope for DTK...went downtown to eat tonight, counted more homeless/marginalized folks then non-homeless...and let's get real, come evening time, it isn't that much different in non-COVID times. After getting yelled at by a seemingly harmless off-meds gentleman, we spent a short bit in downtown and made our way to uptown...actually ended up in Paris ON out of sheer boredom.

Uptown Waterloo has done a remarkably better job of being pedestrian welcoming (I know having the unis there plays a role). Having the water feature and city hall square closed in DTK all summer doesn't help. Last summer it was better with that area open and FourAll pop up shop (don't tell me about social distancing - how is FourAll making it work in Uptown? 20 mins lines from open to close)

When I think about it, on top of the LRT being a colossal missed opportunity in reach (and I do like the idea of an LRT)...I realized it should have been touching king a lot sooner than Victoria. Yes its not far being one street over but often times, with developments and proxities, the street level matters. It should be in site and on mind (along with 8 to 10 tenticles feeding into the mainline with expansion plans for 6 to 8 more as the city expands).

In all, there was absolutely nothing, not one pull in keeping people in DTK tonight.


RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - Acitta - 07-02-2020

(07-02-2020, 11:06 PM)Momo26 Wrote: In all, there was absolutely nothing, not one pull in keeping people in DTK tonight.
It seems to me that when the ongoing construction downtown is finished and the new retail spaces are in use and the new condos populated, it will have a dramatic effect on downtown pedestrian traffic. Maybe not next summer, but the year after should show obvious changes I would think.


RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - panamaniac - 07-03-2020

(07-02-2020, 11:34 PM)Acitta Wrote:
(07-02-2020, 11:06 PM)Momo26 Wrote: In all, there was absolutely nothing, not one pull in keeping people in DTK tonight.
It seems to me that when the ongoing construction downtown is finished and the new retail spaces are in use and the new condos populated, it will have a dramatic effect on downtown pedestrian traffic. Maybe not next summer, but the year after should show obvious changes I would think.

New retail spaces?  That's optimistic ...


RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - tomh009 - 07-03-2020

The stretch of Queen St S from King to Charles looks quite good with the new sidewalks. And on the other side, heading towards Duke, there is also a nice sidewalk next to BMO. Can't tell yet what it will be like next to the future Tim Hortons.

   

   


RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - timc - 07-03-2020

Are those ... roll curbs? Along Queen Street?


RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - tomh009 - 07-03-2020

650/656/664 King St E (a single-storey commercial building at the corner of King St E and Pandora Ave N, plus two adjoining single-family homes) have demolition fencing around them. No demolition permit showing in the city's system yet, though.

The combined property is about 0.25 acres, so you could squeeze in a mixed-use mid-rise apartment building; I expect that would be more likely than a townhouse complex on King St.


RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - danbrotherston - 07-03-2020

(07-03-2020, 12:24 PM)timc Wrote: Are those ... roll curbs? Along Queen Street?

Yes. Yes they are.


RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - Acitta - 07-03-2020

(07-03-2020, 09:38 AM)panamaniac Wrote:
(07-02-2020, 11:34 PM)Acitta Wrote: It seems to me that when the ongoing construction downtown is finished and the new retail spaces are in use and the new condos populated, it will have a dramatic effect on downtown pedestrian traffic. Maybe not next summer, but the year after should show obvious changes I would think.

New retail spaces?  That's optimistic ...
Well, Charlie West, 345 King W., Duke Tower, City Centre, Market Flats, Drewlo project, Mayfair and Station Park all have street level commercial. Maybe some of the others do as well. That is a lot of potential retail space to be filled over the next few years. A lot of new residents will be filling all of those condos and rental apartments. They will be shopping somewhere. The developers must be optimistic or they wouldn't be building.