ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit

[tomh009]

What level should the community-based fees or taxes be done? Should I pay less taxes because I don't have a swimming pool nearby? More taxes because I am close to Victoria Park? Less taxes because there is little on-street parking downtown? Or are you saying this should be done only at the "township" level, so Heidelberg, St Jacobs, Elmira and Breslau should all be treated the same? If so, why should they be?

And while there is limited transit service to the townships, many things are likely more expensive, per resident, in the townships: regional road construction/maintenance, snow removal, garbage collection, etc. This is simply because there are relatively few residents spread out over a far greater area. But these costs are covered by the region and charged equally across the cities and townships.

The same applies with the provincial and federal governments. All provide services that may benefit one region more than another, or cost more to deliver in one region than another, but the tax rates are generally uniform within that level of government. And I don't think we should have it any other way.

[Elmira Guy]

Having to take the bus to a swimming pool that is not in your neighbourhood is a far better option than not having a bus to take at all. Why is it acceptablle to you for all people to pay the same but on!y certain people deserve the service being paid for?
We're not talking about balking at paying for services you don't use, we're talking about thinking it unfair and unreasonable to pay for a service that does not exist in your community for you to use.

Unless you guys feel people should and are going to drive into the cities and then jump on a bus.

Clearly I'm the only one who sees this as unacceptable so there is little point in my discussing it further. I guess township residents should just shut up and not be so unreasonable.

[Elmira Guy]

I would have thought there would be more support here for transit service outside the cities but I was apparently mistaken. Being in favour of charging residents for services that you don't think they warrant is not going to further the cause of transit in the townships, hence my conclusion.

[JoeKW]

I would have thought there would be more support here for transit service outside the cities but I was apparently mistaken. Being in favour of charging residents for services that you don't think they warrant is not going to further the cause of transit in the townships, hence my conclusion.

This is the ION thread which is really only concerned about the ION.  The GRT thread does occasionally delve into discussion about servicing the townships.

I'm totally up for the debate, I think there is a valid concern here, however I think it's important to look at the other side of the coin.  Overall, who is subsidizing who? Ken Seiling says the cities are supporting the townships.  If that is really true, maybe we should exempt the LRT development charges in the townships but also raise their property taxes to ensure that no one is subsidizing anyone else?

[Elmira Guy]

My last comment on it here, for as you say, this thread is strictly concerned with the LRT and while it is that project that is at the heart of the matter here.
But one final point.

If the region ever decided that township residents warrant a transit service that saw all communities connected to the cities (some only a couple of times a day, others more frequently) but in order to do so, ALL households in the region would pay an increase to their property taxes to cover it, would those arguing here in favour of charging township residents for a service they cannot access in their community be okay with such an increase in their taxes?

[BuildingScout]

@ BuildingScout

So if you believe that residents of the townships should be subject to all the same fees as urban residents but should not expect or receive the same services for said fees, how far does this extend in your mind?

You are confused. There is no rule that all communities get the same services. Some cities have international airports, others don't.   Some cities have opera houses, others don't. Some cities have universities, hospitals or medical schools, others don't.

I cannot think of any service that residents of the townships receive from the region that urban residents do not, yet the reverse is true in the two issues being discussed here.

Makes sense. Services are generally provided as warranted and generally according to size,  because of simple economics. A hamlet with ten houses won't be given a public school. A community has to be of certain size before it gets its own school, and instead it gets free public busing for long distances.

Unless of course you think issues facing residents of the township should be considered less important than those facing urban residents. Not saying you are but it would not be the first time I (and I'm certain others who grew up or spent a lot of time living in the townships) I have encountered that sentiment.

False dichotomy. As I said above "services according to size" is a reasonable economic principle and has nothing to do with thinking more or less of township residents. This principle means that we do not get a provincially funded museum of the quality of the ROM, for example. I wish we had such a museum in the RoW, but I can perfectly understand why we  don't without ascribing bad motive to Toronto residents.

[danbrotherston]

@ BuildingScout

So if you believe that residents of the townships should be subject to all the same fees as urban residents but should not expect or receive the same services for said fees, how far does this extend in your mind? Do you also support the removal of waste transfer stations from the townships, telling residents you must now drive into the city to get rid of yard waste and such? If you think they're all going to do so, they ain't.

And your argument that my point about residents having tp pay for transit while not receiving (and won't in my lifetime) is akin to someone saying I shouldn't have to pay taxes towards education because I don't have kids is not quite analogous. I think the dynamics change somewhat when switching from the microeconomics of one to that of a whole community. I cannot think of any service that residents of the townships receive from the region that urban residents do not, yet the reverse is true in the two issues being discussed here.
Unless of course you think issues facing residents of the township should be considered less important than those facing urban residents. Not saying you are but it would not be the first time I (and I'm certain others who grew up or spent a lot of time living in the townships) I have encountered that sentiment.

A service which townships receive from the region, which city residents don't?  Well you already mentioned one, waste transfer stations, but assuming those are going away or somehow not relevant, let's go with another, libraries.

But there are plenty of examples of things your taxes pay for which you will never use.  Yes, someone might have children, and we all benefit from an educated populace, but let's go back to transit then.  You pay for via rail, and go transit through federal and provincial taxes, but plenty of people who live in cities all over the province do not, and never will have Go or Via service.

This is just how taxes work.

If you don't think that urban residents benefit from a prosperous city, I'd direct you to the region's budget.  The rural areas most certainly do prosper as a result of a prosperous city.  And the region's urban dwellers also benefit from the rural area, in the availability of local foods, in the availability of nearby natural recreation options, and through the option to move to a more rural setting for those who wish to.  It goes both ways, there is no versus, we're in this together.

[BuildingScout]

If the region ever decided that township residents warrant a transit service that saw all communities connected to the cities (some only a couple of times a day, others more frequently) but in order to do so, ALL households in the region would pay an increase to their property taxes to cover it, would those arguing here in favour of charging township residents for a service they cannot access in their community be okay with such an increase in their taxes?

I'll answer because this brings back the discussion to the LRT:

For sure they would be in favour, and this is not hypothetical. Most people here are in favour of building the LRT extension to Cambridge, even though most of us here are unlikely to benefit from it since most of the present readership is KW based.

p.s. I don't care if my tax monies go to the townships or the city, that is not the breakdown of expenses  I want from my government. I care that tax funds are spent wisely in the ways that make the most sense. When a new school is approved I don't ask: "is it in a township or in KW?", my question instead is "what are the demographics?". If they show a need because of increase in school age population, then I support the expenditure wherever that school is being built.

[Elmira Guy]

As I said, I have no wish to discuss it further as there is no point. I disagree with you and the others here. While I agree that there are some services that all residents must pay for whether or not those services are accessible, I think that where feasible, there should be genuine efforts made to provide the service being paid for to as many residents as possible. I don't think the region is, or has any future intentions to taking a serious look at improving transit connectivity to the cities, yet those fees will be ongoing.

So seeing as we disagree so fundamentally, there is no point to carry on the discussion.

[danbrotherston]

As I said, I have no wish to discuss it further as there is no point. I disagree with you and the others here. While I agree that there are some services that all residents must pay for whether or not those services are accessible, I think that where feasible, there should be genuine efforts made to provide the service being paid for to as many residents as possible. I don't think the region is, or has any future intentions to taking a serious look at improving transit connectivity to the cities, yet those fees will be ongoing.

So seeing as we disagree so fundamentally, there is no point to carry on the discussion.

Out of curiosity then, I take it you also object to contributing to Via rail, Go Transit, LRT in Ottawa?  Where do you draw the line on your position?

[Lens]

In ION related news, retaining wall blocks are now on site at Charles and Ontario. The wall area looks like it needs a bit of prep but I imagine they'll start working on it very soon.

[GtwoK]

Track on Duke is all rebar'd and framed from Water all the way past College (but not yet to Young). A pour should be happening any day now!

[Elmira Guy]

@ danbrotherston

No I do not object to my taxes going towards services elsewhere, especially when that same service is available to me here, so not quite an analogy.

Look, I get it. You and others feel township residents should pay for all the sane services as city residents without receiving those services. Message received.

[jwilliamson]

You mean the completed crossing at FDB/Caroline is now covered in gravel? Why?

Sorry, I meant the trail crossing from FDB to the Laurel Trail between PI and Laurel Creek.

[tomh009]

I don't think the region is, or has any future intentions to taking a serious look at improving transit connectivity to the cities, yet those fees will be ongoing.

I think that's exactly what Route 77 is, a serious look at the feasibility of connecting the townships.