Welcome Guest!
In order to take advantage of all the great features that Waterloo Region Connected has to offer, including participating in the lively discussions below, you're going to have to register. The good news is that it'll take less than a minute and you can get started enjoying Waterloo Region's best online community right away.
or Create an Account




Thread Rating:
  • 1 Vote(s) - 1 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
General Township Updates and Rumours
#31
Region Eyes Fees On Township Builds To Help Finance LRT.

http://observerxtra.com/2016/08/18/regio...nance-lrt/
Reply


#32
That link didn't work for me, here's a valid link: http://observerxtra.com/2016/08/18/regio...nance-lrt/
Reply
#33
Strange. Thanks
Reply
#34
Continuing the discussion in the ION LRT thread over here, I think ElmiraGuy has a legitimate point, although, it's a complicated equation to balance. Road services in rural areas are proportionately more expensive to service per household than in urban areas. Urban areas also have a lower demand for roads proportionately because fewer people travel on them. So should rural areas than be charged more for roads than urban areas, but less for transit and bike infrastructure? The equation quickly becomes really complicated and I kind of wonder if the housing market figures this out for us (at least to a certain extent) in valuing homes with lower access to services less than homes with better access.

I like the idea of less development being tacked onto the edge of the cities in the region, where an improved urban form is pretty much a hopeless cause, and more of it be centred on the villages and towns in the region where I think there is better opportunity for walkable, pedestrian-oriented development to still succeed. Nodal development like this might actually be easier to service by transit, by having a clear central area where a stop can service the entire community. Rural bike lanes would similarly become far more viable. KW is a poly-nodal region anyway, might as well embrace our strongest assets.

My only concern would be the villages becoming overwhelmed by suburban-style development and their character being lost entirely, which is why strict controls would need to be in place.
Reply
#35
I'd argue that many of the townships are heading for and already at suburban style development where little is walkable, development looks like suburbia, and cars are essential. This development is only made possible because of the cities and the jobs they provide, jobs that wouldn't be there if it weren't for the much higher taxes the cities provide themselves to work with to attract a large and diverse enough population to create employers who would never settle on St. Jacobs were it an hour from the next town, more like a Leamington. I noticed this most at my old workplace, where despite our Waterloo address, I was the only Waterloo resident, with the vast majority coming from townships, complaining that our roads weren't wide enough, using Waterloo recreation facilities, but quite happily paying lower overall taxes by living just across the borders in the townships. It's a bit similar to having grown up in Orleans, now a suburb of Ottawa at 120,000 residents, but without a single non-service/retail employer. Without Ottawa, Orleans would cease to be able to exist, and as opposed to a regional structure as we have, they were sensibly amalgamated into Ottawa proper.
Reply
#36
Wow! You make it sound like township residents are all a bunch of whining interlopers, infringing on the residents of the cities. I have never heard anyone from the townships (or anywhere) complain that roads in the cities aren't wide enough. I have heard people from the city complain that horse and buggies and farm equipment should not be allowed to use roads, and that farms should not be permitted so close to the city so that the smell of manure does not offend them.

I would suggest that there is ignorance in both camps but I'm quite certain there are some here who will support and echo the aforementioned complaints by their fellow urban denizens.

For the record, I live in Waterloo, and even if I wanted to live in Elmira again (which I don't), I would not be able to as the means to travel between there and the city is insufficient to meet my employment. For those of us with disabilities that prevent us from driving, transit is more than something to reduce congestion, satisfy a green agenda, or look neat (they do all of these things), it is a necessity. Hence my support for expanded transit throughout the region. I understand why others have argued against me, as they most likely do not face the same dilemma as myself and others. I'm not attacking anyone's views but it would be nice if others considered that there are other valid perspectives.

We currently have two buses servicing the townships, going to Elmira and New Hamburg. Perhaps another going to Wellesley. Some think this is indicative of a serious effort on the regions part to offer connectivity between the townships and the cities. I think it is at best a token gesture with no serious consideration whatsoever.

But again, I know others here are quite comfortable with the status quo.
Reply
#37
Rural transit service is pretty much unprecedented for cities this size in Canada (and probably the US too), so I don't look to cynically at the Region taking slower first steps.
Reply


#38
(08-31-2016, 02:34 PM)jamincan Wrote: Rural transit service is pretty much unprecedented for cities this size in Canada (and probably the US too), so I don't look to cynically at the Region taking slower first steps.

And very much like the GO train service to Kitchener, they are starting slowly, to build up some ridership, before starting up a lot of routes that might have buses running mostly empty.  The reality is that most people in the townships are not looking for transit, so we need to not only offer transit service but also build up demand.  And that will take some time.
Reply
#39
Hey, I'm not trying to be a dick or anything. But it's frustrating when people defend the status quo and say it's okay for others to pay for services they don't receive when you are someone who would truly appreciate having an option. It would be great to be able to visit my family in Elmira on a Sunday without having to leave Waterloo on Saturday afternoon and stay in Elmira until Monday. I think a lot of people who live and work in the cities take transit for granted, and that includes many people here who are much more informed about such matters than most people out there.

That is the basis of my frustration and annoyance.
Reply
#40
(08-31-2016, 02:55 PM)Elmira Guy Wrote: Hey, I'm not trying to be a dick or anything. But it's frustrating when people defend the status quo and say it's okay for others to pay for services they don't receive when you are someone who would truly appreciate having an option. It would be great to be able to visit my family in Elmira on a Sunday without having to leave Waterloo on Saturday afternoon and stay in Elmira until Monday. I think a lot of people who live and work in the cities take transit for granted, and that includes many people here who are much more informed about such matters than most people out there.

That is the basis of my frustration and annoyance.

I understand your frustration, but there have been a couple people on this forum that responded intelligently to your questions and made some very good points as to why your frustrations are unreasonable. Unfortunately we live in a world where not every single person is going to get what they want. The majority will and that is good. But to come here and say what you believe should be and be offended or angry at how things work is extremely unreasonable. 

I'm with you, trust me. Anyone who knows me knows I always fight for change that's for the greater good, I never settle for the status quo, especially things that are determined through politics. 
But there are certain limitations and there have already been users that posted detailed reasons why there are these limitations and I'll have to agree with them.
Reply
#41
One caveat to add about LRT cost rating to townships in particular: the townships argued for LRT as not just a transit service, but as an infrastructure project that would help stop sprawl, destruction of farmland, and to help preserve the township and rural way of life in ways that bus routes and regular transit just do not accomplish. So there's some logic that if they'd argue for it on behalf of their residents, you could area rate them into it, without area rating them into overall transit.
Reply
#42
Fair enough.

I still maintain that transit to the smaller communities should be something to strive for, and the argument that all should be charged but only some should benefit is not a position that can be argued indefinitely, nor for all services.

There are plenty of developed nations outside of N America who do offer albeit limited connectivity between villages/towns and nearby cities. Because it is not done here or in the US does not mean the concept should be rejected completely.

But fair enough. I won't labour the point further.
Reply
#43
(08-31-2016, 04:18 PM)Elmira Guy Wrote: Fair enough.

I still maintain that transit to the smaller communities should be something to strive for, and the argument that all should be charged but only some should benefit is not a position that can be argued indefinitely, nor for all services.

There are plenty of developed nations outside of N America who do offer albeit limited connectivity between villages/towns and nearby cities. Because it is not done here or in the US does not mean the concept should be rejected completely.

But fair enough. I won't labour the point further.

To be honest, I'm surprised by your finding that people don't support transit in the townships, I actually think there is a lot of support for it.  I have family in New Hamburg and I was quite happy to use the new bus service to visit them.  I hope that it is successful and gets expanded to weekend service.  And I would support transit to the remaining townships as well.

I am however, still realistic that any service must start and grow ridership in the way that is being done in New Hamburg. And also, I am aware that there is finite investment available, and that there are competing opportunities for expansion.

You're absolutely right that other countries have better rural transit.  When in the Netherlands, I was surprised to find that even a place like Philipsburg at Nafziger and Erb St. would probably have a bus stop on order of what is deployed at iXpress stops these days.  And I hope we can get there one day.

I do think a lot of people share this point of view, even my family who lives in the township, as well as many advocates, and, I suspect, people on this board.

I do think most of the resistance you received to your initial post wasn't against transit to the townships, it was against the concept that taxes shouldn't apply just because you don't use, or have direct access to those services. To be fair, your initial post didn't seem to me to advocate for increased transit, as much as it did for area-rating of taxes and fees.
Reply


#44
I admit that I did get my back up a little as right after I made my initial post, someone jumped on and said "so if you don't have kids you shouldn't pay for education?" I don't see that as analogous. But whatever. I'm not generally an unreasonable person. I simply want to see the townships residents get a fair share and don't think they ever be simply considered a revenue source.

I also think there is plenty of support for transit to the townships among township residents. I meant that there is little support for it among residents of the cities, and were it ever suggested by the region that there would be a fee or tax increase to ALL residents in order to expand transit service to the townships, there would be a ton of opposition from urban residents, and I think by some here as well.

The reason I don't think the region takes transit to the townships very seriously is evidenced by the 21 to Elmira and the route it takes within the town. But I suppose that's for discussion elsewhere.

As an aside, I've noticed two people who have referenced the New Hamburg route and 77 to Wellesley as good starting points. I'm curious (and not out of some insecurity) if they failed to include the 21 because they don't consider Elmira rural, or because they simply forgot about it. No shot or dig intended, just curious.
Reply
#45
(08-31-2016, 06:55 PM)Elmira Guy Wrote: I admit that I did get my back up a little as right after I made my initial post, someone jumped on and said "so if you don't have kids you shouldn't pay for education?" I don't see that as analogous. But whatever. I'm not generally an unreasonable person. I simply want to see the townships residents get a fair share and don't think they ever be simply considered a revenue source.

I also think there is plenty of support for transit to the townships among township residents. I meant that there is little support for it among residents of the cities, and were it ever suggested by the region that there would be a fee or tax increase to ALL residents in order to expand transit service to the townships, there would be a ton of opposition from urban residents, and I think by some here as well.

The reason I don't think the region takes transit to the townships very seriously is evidenced by the 21 to Elmira and the route it takes within the town. But I suppose that's for discussion elsewhere.

As an aside, I've noticed two people who have referenced the New Hamburg route and 77 to Wellesley as good starting points. I'm curious (and not out of some insecurity) if they failed to include the 21 because they don't consider Elmira rural, or because they simply forgot about it. No shot or dig intended, just curious.

I think you're right, there probably is a lot of support in the townships. It is probably lower in the city, both a bit from ignorance of the actual townships, as well as the standard dose of human self centeredness. But you are definitely right, when paired with a tax hike to pay for things, support tends to drop. Frankly, there are plenty of people who don't both read past the word tax, but even among those who do, it definitely evokes the value question pretty quickly, which is obviously a point of debate.

So regarding the Elmira bus, I am curious what aspect of the routing do you think should change?  My impression of it was that it had reasonable coverage, but I have never lived in Elmira and have only taken the bus a handful of times.  

As for why I didn't mention it, lol, well, I consider it less of a starting point, and more of a fairly developed route.  I'm not saying the service can't be improved, the hours are frankly, terrible, although when I first started taking the bus in the city, about 6 years ago, the route I rode had the same hours, and now it runs past midnight every day but Sunday, when it only runs till 9. So I do have hope that it will improve.

It definitely wasn't left out as a dig, just because it wasn't a point of expansion to the township, just a story of success that I see. Quite frankly, because of the route 21, and when the car share car was located there, I really saw Elmira as the one rural town in the region I would consider living in.
Reply
« Next Oldest | Next Newest »



Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 2 Guest(s)

About Waterloo Region Connected

Launched in August 2014, Waterloo Region Connected is an online community that brings together all the things that make Waterloo Region great. Waterloo Region Connected provides user-driven content fueled by a lively discussion forum covering topics like urban development, transportation projects, heritage issues, businesses and other issues of interest to those in Kitchener, Waterloo, Cambridge and the four Townships - North Dumfries, Wellesley, Wilmot, and Woolwich.

              User Links