ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit

[jeffster]

Based on the previous September delivery date, the new schedule was "Late Spring." "Late Spring" in the case of the King Street Underpass meant what "Summer" means to most people.

Summer 2019 seems most likely to me.

I corrected your post...

[darts]

Kind of. It appears GrandLinq is also going to be a little late on the construction (if service was starting next week they wouldn't still be testing signals). But once GrandLinq is done construction and is ready for operation then yes, the region has to pay them for operation regardless of whether the vehicles are here. After all, GrandLinq would be ready for operation, it's the region that wouldn't be (due to their contract with Bombardier, which GrandLinq isn't a part of).

Why were the trains originally supposed to be delivered by late fall/winter if we were going to start paying them soon for operating it?

[jeffster]

Kind of. It appears GrandLinq is also going to be a little late on the construction (if service was starting next week they wouldn't still be testing signals). But once GrandLinq is done construction and is ready for operation then yes, the region has to pay them for operation regardless of whether the vehicles are here. After all, GrandLinq would be ready for operation, it's the region that wouldn't be (due to their contract with Bombardier, which GrandLinq isn't a part of).

Why were the trains originally supposed to be delivered by late fall/winter if we were going to start paying them soon for operating it?

You'd have to ask the politicians that question. I suppose it was "if you're late, you pay us, but if you're done on time, we'll start paying by this date.."

Unsure why Bombardier got the contract, we had choices from other makers. I guess perhaps "nationalism" got in the way, so we went with "Canadian" despite it not being a great idea.

Everyone that was against the LRT and kept saying that it wouldn't be up and running by the date the Region claimed have been vindicated.

At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if it's not up before 2020. I figure 2019 by the time the trains are all here, plus a few more months of testing, adjusting, and then training. Spring 2020, we'll see service.

Wasn't this supposed to be up and running by fall 2017?

[danbrotherston]

Why were the trains originally supposed to be delivered by late fall/winter if we were going to start paying them soon for operating it?

You'd have to ask the politicians that question. I suppose it was "if you're late, you pay us, but if you're done on time, we'll start paying by this date.."

Unsure why Bombardier got the contract, we had choices from other makers.  I guess perhaps "nationalism" got in the way, so we went with "Canadian" despite it not being a great idea.

Everyone that was against the LRT and kept saying that it wouldn't be up and running by the date the Region claimed have been vindicated.

At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if it's not up before 2020. I figure 2019 by the time the trains are all here, plus a few more months of testing, adjusting, and then training. Spring 2020, we'll see service.

Wasn't this supposed to be up and running by fall 2017?

The order was from Bombardier because their prices were substantially lower.  It also allowed the region to order our trains along with Metrolinx which further lowered costs.

The LRT was supposed to be running in fall 2017.  There is little reason to think at this point that it won't be running in 2018, 2019 would require enormous new problems at Bombardier.  2020 would mean that we have trains from another manufacturer.

The trains being late is unfortunate and frustrating, but given that construction is finishing essentially on time, I'd argue the naysayers haven't a leg to stand on.  The vast majority of them don't care if the train is running, only if they're obstructed by construction anyway.

[Pheidippides]

Is the problem similar to what Edmonton was (is?) dealing with its new Metro line?

Getting the signals to function properly now will hopefully irritate the anti-LRT crowd less later.

[jeffster]

You'd have to ask the politicians that question. I suppose it was "if you're late, you pay us, but if you're done on time, we'll start paying by this date.."

Unsure why Bombardier got the contract, we had choices from other makers.  I guess perhaps "nationalism" got in the way, so we went with "Canadian" despite it not being a great idea.

Everyone that was against the LRT and kept saying that it wouldn't be up and running by the date the Region claimed have been vindicated.

At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if it's not up before 2020. I figure 2019 by the time the trains are all here, plus a few more months of testing, adjusting, and then training. Spring 2020, we'll see service.

Wasn't this supposed to be up and running by fall 2017?

The order was from Bombardier because their prices were substantially lower.  It also allowed the region to order our trains along with Metrolinx which further lowered costs.

The LRT was supposed to be running in fall 2017.  There is little reason to think at this point that it won't be running in 2018, 2019 would require enormous new problems at Bombardier.  2020 would mean that we have trains from another manufacturer.

The trains being late is unfortunate and frustrating, but given that construction is finishing essentially on time, I'd argue the naysayers haven't a leg to stand on.  The vast majority of them don't care if the train is running, only if they're obstructed by construction anyway.

Well, the naysayers I spoke to weren't just thinking construction deadlines, they weren't expecting the trains to be running by the date claimed by the region.

I actually stuck-up for the region and said "it'll be ready on time"....but I'm at the point were I'm very disappointed too.

I guess you get what you pay for...

[taylortbb]

Kind of. It appears GrandLinq is also going to be a little late on the construction (if service was starting next week they wouldn't still be testing signals). But once GrandLinq is done construction and is ready for operation then yes, the region has to pay them for operation regardless of whether the vehicles are here. After all, GrandLinq would be ready for operation, it's the region that wouldn't be (due to their contract with Bombardier, which GrandLinq isn't a part of).

Why were the trains originally supposed to be delivered by late fall/winter if we were going to start paying them soon for operating it?

The trains were supposed to be delivered a year or more before opening, that was felt to be lots of margin. It just turns out Bombardier found a way to be even later than a year.

[darts]

Why were the trains originally supposed to be delivered by late fall/winter if we were going to start paying them soon for operating it?

You'd have to ask the politicians that question. I suppose it was "if you're late, you pay us, but if you're done on time, we'll start paying by this date.."

Unsure why Bombardier got the contract, we had choices from other makers.  I guess perhaps "nationalism" got in the way, so we went with "Canadian" despite it not being a great idea.

Everyone that was against the LRT and kept saying that it wouldn't be up and running by the date the Region claimed have been vindicated.

At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if it's not up before 2020. I figure 2019 by the time the trains are all here, plus a few more months of testing, adjusting, and then training. Spring 2020, we'll see service.

Wasn't this supposed to be up and running by fall 2017?

So pretty much just bad planning. I'm surprised they didn't at least specify in the contract operations payments wouldn't start until there is something to operate.

[tomh009]

I don't think Grandlinq would have wanted a contract that depends on another independent supplier (Bombardier) that they have no control over. Now, if the region had bought he trains, too, from Grandlinq, it would be a whole different thing.

[JoeKW]

I hadn't considered that angle. So Keolis is being paid by the Region, starting at the original opening date?

It's my understanding that Grandlinq starts getting paid to run the thing once they deliver their finished system, whether there are trains or not.  So it turns out any delays (to the system, not the trains) at this point will probably save us some money.

[jeffster]

I don't think Grandlinq would have wanted a contract that depends on another independent supplier (Bombardier) that they have no control over.  Now, if the region had bought he trains, too, from Grandlinq, it would be a whole different thing.

I think that may have been the original plan, but they saved a couple thousand per train by piggybacking off of Metrolinx.

Perhaps then you could say the region was being "more penny wise and pound foolish".

I really get the feeling if this isn't up any running by May 1st, lots of politicians are going to feel lots of hurt come election time.

[trainspotter139]

As I've said earlier, Tom Galloway has said that the problem is no longer the assembly of the vehicles but rather the integration of the vehicle's computerized control systems with the signalling system chosen by Grandlinq.

[Canard]

Right; he said that months ago. Bear in mind that is just one very specific aspect of what is taking so long. There are other things...

Regarding buying from Bombardier being penny wise and pound foolish - no, at the time, there was absolutely no reason to think there would be an issue.  The delays in TTC deliveries hadn't started yet (Thunder Bay hadn't built a single LRV yet).  This is nobody's fault here at the Region.  Now, if they hadn't bought the same trains as a neighbour <100 km away that was getting ~400 similar vehicles... that would have been foolish.

[ijmorlan]

Right; he said that months ago.  Bear in mind that is just one very specific aspect of what is taking so long.  There are other things...

Regarding buying from Bombardier being penny wise and pound foolish - no, at the time, there was absolutely no reason to think there would be an issue.  The delays in TTC deliveries hadn't started yet (Thunder Bay hadn't built a single LRV yet).  This is nobody's fault here at the Region.  Now, if they hadn't bought the same trains as a neighbour <100 km away that was getting ~400 similar vehicles... that would have been foolish.

Also more in response to a different message but I believe they actually saved quite a significant amount per vehicle, not “a couple thousand”. Really this whole Bombardier thing is Bombardier’s fault: nobody should be blaming those who chose Bombardier.

The only exception is with the Metrolinx dispute portion of the lateness, where I can’t tell how much help Bombardier needed from Metrolinx. Bombardier seems pretty incompetent on their own, but if anybody needs any help with being incompetent, getting help from Metrolinx is a great way to go.

[Canard]

Understand this is a new product - a variant of the FLEXITY 2 in Europe, brought here specifically because of Transit City. So, it was co-developed with Metrolinx, since that was going to be a huge, guaranteed order.

ML was horrible in making decisions about what they wanted. Bombardier wasn't going to stick their neck out and build something ML was going to later reject.