Highway 7 - Kitchener to Guelph

[SammyOES2]

Here's some other relevant documents:

http://newhighway7.ca/reports/

I haven't read through them all, but at the very least they have this whole section:

http://newhighway7.ca/documents/Hwy%207%...h%204-.pdf

[Pheidippides]

A 2011 estimate put it at $400 million which is about $435 millions in 2017 dollars

From my first look at that second document SammyOES2 posted it seems like the EA process was biased toward the new option (e.g. enhancements to the existing road are not an option, because they wouldn't meet the demand, but it doesn't talk about induced demand of the new road; or buses are not an option because they would get stuck in the same traffic, but it doesn't consider a bus only rapidway; or trains are not an option because the travel time is too slow (even though they use a 40 minute trip length when it is currently 24 minutes on GO with enhancements still to come) and the origin-destinations too diverse, but doesn't consider rail enhancements coupled with transit network enhancements on each end); or enhancing adjacent roads is not an option because of the considerable cost of a new crossing of the grand river, but a new crossing of the grand river is not a negastive factor in considering the new highway). 

I will have to read it fully before commenting further.

[KevinL]

If the EA was done 20 years ago, I imagine transit was not broached as an option. That stretch of rail would not even have a couple GO trains a day at that point, just VIA.

That said, I do hope that the transit option is still looked into. Metrolinx wants to double-track and electrify that section; who says all the trains that use it have to go to Toronto-Union? Set up a more local shuttle, make better improvements to Guelph buses, and we can stave off the next, inevitable road expansion proposal.

[darts]

Metrolinx wants to double-track and electrify that section; who says all the trains that use it have to go to Toronto-Union? Set up a more local shuttle, make better improvements to Guelph buses, and we can stave off the next, inevitable road expansion proposal.

sounds like a lot for something that could be better served by a greyhound

[KevinL]

The problem is, Greyhound cannot be relied on to increase their frequency to serve the public interest, only their own.

[darts]

The problem is, Greyhound cannot be relied on to increase their frequency to serve the public interest, only their own.

Kind of points that there isn't demand for travel between the two cities to make it worth running a bus let alone a train

[wdjo]

Greyhound has a profit motive and runs several buses a day. Compare this with GO Transit which is subsidized for the public interest, much like highways. If GO operated the route between Guelph and Kitchener, frequency would be higher and fares would be lower (which would induce more demand).

[wdjo]

I had just written a huge rant back and decided to scrap it, basically saying (less eloquently) what you just said.

Multiple bus rides to a train station, then a train ride between KW and Guelph, then multiple bus rides on the other end.  20 minute drive becomes a 2 hour ordeal.  No one is going to do that.  It would be cute, sure.  But that's it - still have the last mile issue.

Downtown Guelph and Downtown Kitchener are about 20km apart by rail.  When the line is upgraded and electrified the travel time could be around 10 minutes.  With LRT on the Kitchener-Waterloo side and Guelph slowly moving towards BRT, transit between key destinations should be quite reasonable and competitive with driving (consider travel between: U of G, Downtown Guelph, Downtown Kitchener, Uptown Waterloo, UW / WLU).

(Also, what 20 minute drive?  Downtown to downtown takes me 30-35 minutes.  When the divided highway is eventually built, there will be more congestion in the cores from population growth and induced demand.  How much will that negate the time shaved off the drive through farmland?)

[ijmorlan]

The problem is, Greyhound cannot be relied on to increase their frequency to serve the public interest, only their own.

Kind of points that there isn't demand for travel between the two cities to make it worth running a bus let alone a train

If that’s true, then there is no need to build a superhighway. Unless it is really true that essentially none of the demand can use transit, which is a bit hard to believe.

[ijmorlan]

I had just written a huge rant back and decided to scrap it, basically saying (less eloquently) what you just said.

Multiple bus rides to a train station, then a train ride between KW and Guelph, then multiple bus rides on the other end.  20 minute drive becomes a 2 hour ordeal.  No one is going to do that.  It would be cute, sure.  But that's it - still have the last mile issue.

Downtown Guelph and Downtown Kitchener are about 20km apart by rail.  When the line is upgraded and electrified the travel time could be around 10 minutes.  With LRT on the Kitchener-Waterloo side and Guelph slowly moving towards BRT, transit between key destinations should be quite reasonable and competitive with driving (consider travel between: U of G, Downtown Guelph, Downtown Kitchener, Uptown Waterloo, UW / WLU).

(Also, what 20 minute drive?  Downtown to downtown takes me 30-35 minutes.  When the divided highway is eventually built, there will be more congestion in the cores from population growth and induced demand.  How much will that negate the time shaved off the drive through farmland?)

This is the exact sort of strategic thinking I’m trying to look at. Instead of just observing a busy highway and deciding that it must be expanded, really ask what the actual real-world consequences will be of various possible actions.

[jamincan]

Public transit is going to serve a smaller subset of travellers between Guelph and KW. Just because travel patterns and levels wouldn't support an LRT line doesn't mean that demand isn't there for improved road connections between Guelph and KW.

[ijmorlan]

A 2011 estimate put it at $400 million which is about $435 millions in 2017 dollars

From my first look at that second document SammyOES2 posted it seems like the EA process was biased toward the new option (e.g. enhancements to the existing road are not an option, because they wouldn't meet the demand, but it doesn't talk about induced demand of the new road; or buses are not an option because they would get stuck in the same traffic, but it doesn't consider a bus only rapidway; or trains are not an option because the travel time is too slow (even though they use a 40 minute trip length when it is currently 24 minutes on GO with enhancements still to come) and the origin-destinations too diverse, but doesn't consider rail enhancements coupled with transit network enhancements on each end); or enhancing adjacent roads is not an option because of the considerable cost of a new crossing of the grand river, but a new crossing of the grand river is not a negastive factor in considering the new highway). 

I will have to read it fully before commenting further.

I took a quick look and I do feel a bit better that transit etc. weren’t completely ignored in the EA. However, there still seems to be an assumption that the road must operate at a certain “level of service” even at rush hour. Why do we think drivers are entitled to uncongested roads at all hours, without even considering that maybe they should pay a fee for such luxury? It’s bizarre. Here’s a simple, minimal cost idea: charge a toll on Highway 7 during rush hour. I’ll bet that would scare away enough traffic to make it a significantly more pleasant drive. Not a proposal, but I am asking why nobody even suggests such a thing.

Indeed, if “level of service” is so important, charge congestion fees to guarantee a certain level of service. It’s possible to eliminate all congestion and replace it with high toll fees (with low or even no toll fees when and where there would have been low or no congestion). Then you have a bunch of money coming in that can be used to build more roads, without making a claim on general funds.

Or, what if we instead took the attitude that transit riders are entitled to be able to get anywhere with sufficient population density in reasonable time? We’d build a lot more transit lines, probably enough that many drivers would look at the network and realize it could handle some of their trips. Right now we instead have roads everywhere and even people who want to take transit end up sitting in a car.

[SammyOES2]

If the EA was done 20 years ago, I imagine transit was not broached as an option. That stretch of rail would not even have a couple GO trains a day at that point, just VIA.

I mean... the documents are available and linked above.  We don't have to imagine or make assumptions.  We can actually, you know, read the documents.

Transit was broached as an option.

[Canard]

omg this thread.

What do people think of Highway 7 between Kitchener and Stratford? Is it overbuilt and unnecessary?

We were biking in London today and took the long way home, and all I could think of while driving along it was this thread.

[timio]

7/8 from New Hamburg to Stratford is in dire need of expansion of some sort. Kitchener to New Hamburg is fine.