St. Patrick's celebrations

[panamaniac]

you know what? let them have their party..just don't have any police presence or ambulances available. it'll take care of itself within a year.

Not going to happen.  The City and WRPS need to devise means to start ratcheting the thing down.

[jeffster]

you know what? let them have their party..just don't have any police presence or ambulances available. it'll take care of itself within a year.

Not going to happen.  The City and WRPS need to devise means to start ratcheting the thing down.

I agree...however, this thing isn't going to ratchet down. The region needs to be totally hands off on this. We can't be tying up our resources for an illegal party hosted by selfish self-centred 18-21 year olds getting drunk. Either the universities hire police and ambulance services from outside the region, open up a emergency unit in one of the mess halls, or let it goes as is until something tragic happens, then it will shut itself down.

I predict though, that something bad is going to happen in 2019. The police in this region have zero control of this party, and the City of Waterloo has zero interest in getting involved. 2019 could be the breaking point.

[ijmorlan]

Not going to happen.  The City and WRPS need to devise means to start ratcheting the thing down.

I agree...however, this thing isn't going to ratchet down. The region needs to be totally hands off on this. We can't be tying up our resources for an illegal party hosted by selfish self-centred 18-21 year olds getting drunk.  Either the universities hire police and ambulance services from outside the region, open up a emergency unit in one of the mess halls, or let it goes as is until something tragic happens, then it will shut itself down.

I predict though, that something bad is going to happen in 2019. The police in this region have zero control of this party, and the City of Waterloo has zero interest in getting involved. 2019 could be the breaking point.

Why would it shut itself down?

What would actually happen if something tragic happened is people would look at every possibly-relevant government agency and ask why they didn’t do anything to prevent it. Then they would have to do something, probably a lot, the next year.

I’m not sure why you think something bad will happen specifically next year. From what I heard it actually went fairly well this year — I mean, sure, the street (avenue!) didn’t remain passable to traffic, but there wasn’t a riot, there wasn’t extensive property damage or many injuries — so personally I predict it will stay similar to this year, at least if the police do the same next year as they did this year. Do we have a reason to believe more out-of-towners will come next year?

[jeffster]

I agree...however, this thing isn't going to ratchet down. The region needs to be totally hands off on this. We can't be tying up our resources for an illegal party hosted by selfish self-centred 18-21 year olds getting drunk.  Either the universities hire police and ambulance services from outside the region, open up a emergency unit in one of the mess halls, or let it goes as is until something tragic happens, then it will shut itself down.

I predict though, that something bad is going to happen in 2019. The police in this region have zero control of this party, and the City of Waterloo has zero interest in getting involved. 2019 could be the breaking point.

Why would it shut itself down?

What would actually happen if something tragic happened is people would look at every possibly-relevant government agency and ask why they didn’t do anything to prevent it. Then they would have to do something, probably a lot, the next year.

I’m not sure why you think something bad will happen specifically next year. From what I heard it actually went fairly well this year — I mean, sure, the street (avenue!) didn’t remain passable to traffic, but there wasn’t a riot, there wasn’t extensive property damage or many injuries — so personally I predict it will stay similar to this year, at least if the police do the same next year as they did this year. Do we have a reason to believe more out-of-towners will come next year?

As I had mentioned before, we need to discontinue EMS for that area, which is my main concern.

CTV had an interesting news piece on today, it was about the consequences of drinking and driving. When there is an incident, the amount of resources that go into this obviously takes away from elsewhere. The officer was saying how it could take an hour for police to arrive at another call because they're being stretch so thin.

The consequences of using our EMS for an event like this, will, eventually, lead to a severe incident where someone outside the party dies because services are unavailable. That's if it doesn't happen in the party first. It's something I'm not willing to risk, and neither should anyone here. We already were told the details (the facts) that EMS wasn't available for much of the party.

Why I think next year is because it will be a Sunday, the crowds will be even larger, and depending on the weather (or perhaps it doesn't matter), and it will likely be too much for the services to handle.

Hopefully they'll bill the city of Waterloo and the two universities for the added costs.

[danbrotherston]

Why would it shut itself down?

What would actually happen if something tragic happened is people would look at every possibly-relevant government agency and ask why they didn’t do anything to prevent it. Then they would have to do something, probably a lot, the next year.

I’m not sure why you think something bad will happen specifically next year. From what I heard it actually went fairly well this year — I mean, sure, the street (avenue!) didn’t remain passable to traffic, but there wasn’t a riot, there wasn’t extensive property damage or many injuries — so personally I predict it will stay similar to this year, at least if the police do the same next year as they did this year. Do we have a reason to believe more out-of-towners will come next year?

As I had mentioned before, we need to discontinue EMS for that area, which is my main concern.

CTV had an interesting news piece on today, it was about the consequences of drinking and driving. When there is an incident, the amount of resources that go into this obviously takes away from elsewhere. The officer was saying how it could take an hour for police to arrive at another call because they're being stretch so thin.

The consequences of using our EMS for an event like this, will, eventually, lead to a severe incident where someone outside the party dies because services are unavailable. That's if it doesn't happen in the party first. It's something I'm not willing to risk, and neither should anyone here. We already were told the details (the facts) that EMS wasn't available for much of the party.

Why I think next year is because it will be a Sunday, the crowds will be even larger, and depending on the weather (or perhaps it doesn't matter), and it will likely be too much for the services to handle.  

Hopefully they'll bill the city of Waterloo and the two universities for the added costs.

Is this a serious argument that somehow the lives of people outside the party are more worthy of emergency services than those within?

We need to solve the problems with the party but "discontinuing" EMS is not a solution.

[ijmorlan]

As I had mentioned before, we need to discontinue EMS for that area, which is my main concern.

Clearly you do not understand how our society works. It works in large part by providing certain services to everybody, without judging whether they are worthy to receive those services. This isn’t perfect, but it’s better than the alternative.

Why I think next year is because it will be a Sunday, the crowds will be even larger, and depending on the weather (or perhaps it doesn't matter), and it will likely be too much for the services to handle.  

Thanks, I see where you’re coming from on this. I can’t say if Saturday or Sunday is the “best” day for a party, but I definitely agree that weekends are likely to see larger attendance. Although one Councillor made a rather silly statement, suggesting that this year was the first time the party occurred on a Saturday, when in fact March 17, 2012 was also a Saturday. In other words, there are probably current students who have celebrated St. Patrick’s day on Ezra Avenue twice on a Saturday.

[Pheidippides]

Is this a serious argument that somehow the lives of people outside the party are more worthy of emergency services than those within?

Yes, EMS has a duty to serve everyone in need, but I think the intent of the comment was that intentionally drinking yourself into a coma is completely preventable event where as someone randomly getting hit by a car or having a heart attack is largely unpreventable. Someone having a bad day and getting hit by a car shouldn't have to die at the expense of someone else's selfish and law breaking choices.

It is the same reason we teach children not to call 9-1-1 unless it is a true emergency - it ties up resources that can be properly used elsewhere.

[jamincan]

Is this a serious argument that somehow the lives of people outside the party are more worthy of emergency services than those within?

Yes, EMS has a duty to serve everyone in need, but I think the intent of the comment was that intentionally drinking yourself into a coma is completely preventable event where as someone randomly getting hit by a car or having a heart attack is largely unpreventable. Someone having a bad day and getting hit by a car shouldn't have to die at the expense of someone else's selfish and law breaking choices.

It is the same reason we teach children not to call 9-1-1 unless it is a true emergency - it ties up resources that can be properly used elsewhere.

That's a rabbit hole we don't want to go down. That person with the heart attack had McDonald for supper last night and is a smoker. The person hit by the car was on their phone and not wearing bright and reflective clothing. We triage based on need and in dire situations, prognosis, not based on virtue or moral deficiency.

[Pheidippides]

Yes, EMS has a duty to serve everyone in need, but I think the intent of the comment was that intentionally drinking yourself into a coma is completely preventable event where as someone randomly getting hit by a car or having a heart attack is largely unpreventable. Someone having a bad day and getting hit by a car shouldn't have to die at the expense of someone else's selfish and law breaking choices.

It is the same reason we teach children not to call 9-1-1 unless it is a true emergency - it ties up resources that can be properly used elsewhere.

That's a rabbit hole we don't want to go down. That person with the heart attack had McDonald for supper last night and is a smoker. The person hit by the car was on their phone and not wearing bright and reflective clothing. We triage based on need and in dire situations, prognosis, not based on virtue or moral deficiency.

I'll agree with the first and last sentences as excellent points; triage based on need.

The middle sentences are irrelevant. As a society we encourage safe choices and behaviours (healthy eating, no smoking, proper PPE, etc.), but we don't have laws requiring a nutritious diet, completely banning smoking, walking while talking on a phone, or requiring bright clothing to walk the streets. We do have laws regarding the consumption of alcohol in public and by those of age, and occupying a public space without a permit. There are natural consequences that go along with all choices which is why we have laws in some cases to help encourage people to make the healthier choice (at the individual and societal/collective level); some choices have immediate consequences (alcohol poisoning) others have longer term consequences (thickening arteries).

[danbrotherston]

*blinks*....this is not a direction I thought this forum would go.

[Coke6pk]

Lets hope they never start an illegal party in my neighbourhood...

Jeffster will be calling for Emergency Services to refuse to respond to my heart attack/B&E/Fire. That'll teach those kids!

Coke

[jeffster]

As I had mentioned before, we need to discontinue EMS for that area, which is my main concern.

Clearly you do not understand how our society works. It works in large part by providing certain services to everybody, without judging whether they are worthy to receive those services. This isn’t perfect, but it’s better than the alternative.

Why I think next year is because it will be a Sunday, the crowds will be even larger, and depending on the weather (or perhaps it doesn't matter), and it will likely be too much for the services to handle.  

Thanks, I see where you’re coming from on this. I can’t say if Saturday or Sunday is the “best” day for a party, but I definitely agree that weekends are likely to see larger attendance. Although one Councillor made a rather silly statement, suggesting that this year was the first time the party occurred on a Saturday, when in fact March 17, 2012 was also a Saturday. In other words, there are probably current students who have celebrated St. Patrick’s day on Ezra Avenue twice on a Saturday.

The last time it was on a Saturday (2012) it wasn't nearly as big. It's been growing over the years, but it's only been the past 5 celebrations (2014) that they've been starting to get out of control, size wise.

As for our services, this still is an illegal party that puts the ENTIRE region at risk, for a rather small group of revellers. As I mentioned before, this is not a good situation and anyone living in the region shouldn't have to worry about that risk, if they have a need for EMS or police services (though the police services are being taken care of). As it stands, only a small amount had to be hospitalized, but most could have been treated if the city of Waterloo and the universities set up something nearby.

Ideally, the universities and the city of Waterloo could provide for those services on their own, and they should. They could hire EMS staff as well as busses to provide the necessary resources. It appears that when it comes to this though, that there is no desire with the city of Waterloo or the universities to be part of the solution, and no desire to put any money into this.

There are solution out there, and it's not rocket science. Make it legal and inclusive. Or accept it as a money loser but it's on the city of Waterloo and universities that bear the costs, and their responsibility to provide the needed services.

[danbrotherston]

Clearly you do not understand how our society works. It works in large part by providing certain services to everybody, without judging whether they are worthy to receive those services. This isn’t perfect, but it’s better than the alternative.


Thanks, I see where you’re coming from on this. I can’t say if Saturday or Sunday is the “best” day for a party, but I definitely agree that weekends are likely to see larger attendance. Although one Councillor made a rather silly statement, suggesting that this year was the first time the party occurred on a Saturday, when in fact March 17, 2012 was also a Saturday. In other words, there are probably current students who have celebrated St. Patrick’s day on Ezra Avenue twice on a Saturday.

The last time it was on a Saturday (2012) it wasn't nearly as big. It's been growing over the years, but it's only been the past 5 celebrations (2014) that they've been starting to get out of control, size wise.

As for our services, this still is an illegal party that puts the ENTIRE region at risk, for a rather small group of revellers. As I mentioned before, this is not a good situation and anyone living in the region shouldn't have to worry about that risk, if they have a need for EMS or police services (though the police services are being taken care of).  As it stands, only a small amount had to be hospitalized, but most could have been treated if the city of Waterloo and the universities set up something nearby.

Ideally, the universities and the city of Waterloo could provide for those services on their own, and they should.  They could hire EMS staff as well as busses to provide the necessary resources. It appears that when it comes to this though, that there is no desire with the city of Waterloo or the universities to be part of the solution, and no desire to put any money into this.

There are solution out there, and it's not rocket science. Make it legal and inclusive. Or accept it as a money loser but it's on the city of Waterloo and universities that bear the costs, and their responsibility to provide the needed services.

This is not an "illegal" party.

Everyone says this, but it means nothing.  There are illegal acts, yes, and those people are punished.  But it is not illegal to congregate on public property, nor is it illegal to invite people onto your own property for a party.  Calling this an "illegal party" is the same as arguing a traffic jam is an illegal party, a group of people, some (probably more) who are breaking the law, all in one place blocking a road.

As for EMS, why do you call out City of Waterloo?  They're not responsible for EMS services, why are you calling them out in this case.  The city and region are hardly distinct in this case.  I think if you lived in the CoW, you wouldn't be saying this.

I'm all for solving the problems related to this event, but this rhetoric is not solving anything.

[jeffster]

That's a rabbit hole we don't want to go down. That person with the heart attack had McDonald for supper last night and is a smoker. The person hit by the car was on their phone and not wearing bright and reflective clothing. We triage based on need and in dire situations, prognosis, not based on virtue or moral deficiency.

The difference is known facts:

A person having a heart attack might have a healthy diet, and is a non-smoker, but had an undiagnosed heart condition. A person hit by a car may have been legally crossing the road, when an idiot ran a red light (this happened to me when I was in grade 8) and ran them over. Many of these are hit and runs.

In any event, we can't 'triage' the above people because their too busy with people who are KNOWINGLY breaking the law, PURPOSELY getting drunk, UNDERAGE drinking, and are all at an ILLEGAL party, these are all the known facts.

As for the above, we don't know. Though evidence suggests that the majority of pedestrian accidents occur a legal traffic crossing with the driver making an illegal maneuver. I'm not sure about heart attack "victims", but from I've seen, a lot have had a unknown heart condition and many seemed relatively healthy. A friend of mine, who's only 49, had a heart attack, he doesn't drink, smoke, do drugs, and eats healthy. That's just the way life goes sometimes.

One thing we do know though is that getting stupid drunk is going to create serious health issues.

[jeffster]

This is not an "illegal" party.

Everyone says this, but it means nothing.  There are illegal acts, yes, and those people are punished.  But it is not illegal to congregate on public property, nor is it illegal to invite people onto your own property for a party.  Calling this an "illegal party" is the same as arguing a traffic jam is an illegal party, a group of people, some (probably more) who are breaking the law, all in one place blocking a road.

As for EMS, why do you call out City of Waterloo?  They're not responsible for EMS services, why are you calling them out in this case.  The city and region are hardly distinct in this case.  I think if you lived in the CoW, you wouldn't be saying this.

I'm all for solving the problems related to this event, but this rhetoric is not solving anything.

It's 'illegal' because it's on a public street. It's 'illegal' because there is underage drinking. It's 'illegal' because there is public intoxication. If I go and walking on a street with a open can of beer, I'll be arrested. That's a fact. So what is going on here is 100% illegal. This isn't a party on someones property. You and I both know that. To compare this to a traffic jam is beyond ridiculous.

How about trying to have a 'party' on your street, start handing drinks to 18 year olds, get people drunk, and see well that goes for ya.

As for "why do you call out the City of Waterloo"? This is because Waterloo doesn't enforce their own by-laws, and does nothing to contribute to the safety of this party.

The City of Kitchener puts on their own parties, legally, and they HIRE EMS, they HIRE police services, etc, not to mention use their corporate security and by-law to ensure safety of the patrons. These parties brings in money to the city primarily, but also some benefits to the region. But guess what, the region doesn't have to pony up the costs of these parties the city puts on.

If I lived in the CoW I wouldn't care if the city had to pay for it. Just like I don't care, being a CoK taxpayer, at paying for all these events the city puts on. Kitchener wants their drunken (within reason) rib and beer fest, their drunken (within reason) Blues Fest, and they have to pay for the added services. If I decide to benefit myself to these 'legal' parties, I can. If it's a rainout disaster, oh well...