ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit

[ijmorlan]

It's the attitude that it doesn't matter if anyone isn't around.

Except that it doesn’t matter if no-one is around.

I mean, that is just a fact. The purpose of the stop sign is to help different drivers and pedestrians co-exist. If there was only one person using the road, there would not need to be any traffic control devices of any kind. When only one vehicle/pedestrian is anywhere near the intersection, it doesn’t matter.

The problem arises when people get in the habit of just rolling through everything and not really properly checking. It’s the properly checking which matters. I would say that an over-emphasis on “coming to a complete stop” is actually a negative; it’s perfectly possible to screech to a stop, then take off at high speed without properly checking for other traffic.

This is one of several reasons why I consider “timed stop” rules to be complete nonsense. They’re nothing more than a way of making it crystal clear that the police are allowed to ticket perfectly safe behaviour. Fortunately that particular little bit of authoritarianism is not in Ontario’s traffic rules.

[Bob_McBob]

Northfield and Willis Way LRT stations in Waterloo may need renos for safety reasons

[CuilTard]

Northfield and Willis Way LRT stations in Waterloo may need renos for safety reasons

I wonder if the problem with Willis Way is related to the signage that tells you not to cross Caroline to the platform from the Shops side at the north end of the platform (maps), but to walk south past the platform where there's a designated crossing? I have to admit that I was too lazy and went with others that waited for a gap in traffic. I guess the concern here is that a driver will make a quick right out of the LCBO lot onto northbound Caroline and not see you? I got away with one. I won't do that again.

[plam]

Northfield and Willis Way LRT stations in Waterloo may need renos for safety reasons

I wonder if the problem with Willis Way is related to the signage that tells you not to cross Caroline to the platform from the Shops side at the north end of the platform (maps), but to walk south past the platform where there's a designated crossing? I have to admit that I was too lazy and went with others that waited for a gap in traffic. I guess the concern here is that a driver will make a quick right out of the LCBO lot onto northbound Caroline and not see you? I got away with one. I won't do that again.

I've mailed Sean Strickland about Willis Way and am meeting with regional staff about it tomorrow. The issue is that basically no one wants to get off the train and go south away from their trip generator (or worse yet, west to the multi-use trail, which also has bikes whizzing by). People will cross Caroline mid-block. Which could be fine, perhaps. Or maybe pedestrian traffic should be funneled north towards where the trip generators are actually located. This station layout does not respect desire lines.

[Coke6pk]

So apparently Ottawa is in good shape compared to us:

https://www.ottawamatters.com/local-news...on-1544944

TLR - Ottawa's system doesn't mix with traffic, Kitchener's (Waterloo) does.

While it would have been nice to have a separate system, these cities weren't designed to even make this happen, IMHO. Though much of the LRT doesn't mix traffic, such as parts of Waterloo from Uptown to Northfield and in Kitchener from Bordon to Fairview.

"Ours is completely segregated from cars, trucks and bicycles so there will never be that kind of contact,"

I am sure there are drivers who will accept this challenge....

Coke

[jeffster]

It's the attitude that it doesn't matter if anyone isn't around.

Except that it doesn’t matter if no-one is around.

I mean, that is just a fact. The purpose of the stop sign is to help different drivers and pedestrians co-exist. If there was only one person using the road, there would not need to be any traffic control devices of any kind. When only one vehicle/pedestrian is anywhere near the intersection, it doesn’t matter.

The problem arises when people get in the habit of just rolling through everything and not really properly checking. It’s the properly checking which matters. I would say that an over-emphasis on “coming to a complete stop” is actually a negative; it’s perfectly possible to screech to a stop, then take off at high speed without properly checking for other traffic.

This is one of several reasons why I consider “timed stop” rules to be complete nonsense. They’re nothing more than a way of making it crystal clear that the police are allowed to ticket perfectly safe behaviour. Fortunately that particular little bit of authoritarianism is not in Ontario’s traffic rules.

I've been hit twice by people that "didn't think" that no-one was around. Well, I was No-One, and I was around. Last time was about 6 months ago. Car to my right came to a stop, as did I. Being that they were to MY right, they had the right away, and they did so proceed. I proceeded to move after they passed, then I got nicked in my passenger side, by some woman that didn't bother to stop. Had several witnesses, which all acknowledged that I had the right of way. But her response was "I didn't see you". This despite a line of cars behind me. My guess is that she assumed I was turning right, like what 90% of the cars do, rather than go straight. But I was going straight, and didn't have signals saying otherwise. Though that is another problem too -- people don't use their signals.

The issue is, rolling stops make for poor drivers. Everyone's is in a rush, and so many do not pay attention to their surroundings. A stop sign is a stop sign, not a yield, you stop. Period. You look every way, then proceed. It poor, lazy, inconsiderate driving habits of people that disobey traffic sign, and a rolling stop is just that. I just saw an accident the other day where the light had turned green, but the folks on the other side, who had had the advanced green, were still finishing, even though the advanced green had long disappeared. Pedestrian was lucky not to have serious injuries, but having 5 cars carry-on after the advanced green was over shows how selfish and inconsiderate drivers are. It's the same for these stops signs.

I have approximately 1.5 million km driving experience -- 3 speeding tickets, that's it. I have been involved in about 5 accidents, 3 rear-enders (once stopping for a school bus, lights flashing, and once for EMS) as well as a couple minor side-hits at stop signs (as above). But when you hear "Why you stop for school bus?" it makes you question the dickheads on the road.

[ijmorlan]

I am sure there are drivers who will accept this challenge....

Coke

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iOi_iPNC50

[ijmorlan]

I wonder if the problem with Willis Way is related to the signage that tells you not to cross Caroline to the platform from the Shops side at the north end of the platform (maps), but to walk south past the platform where there's a designated crossing? I have to admit that I was too lazy and went with others that waited for a gap in traffic. I guess the concern here is that a driver will make a quick right out of the LCBO lot onto northbound Caroline and not see you? I got away with one. I won't do that again.

I've mailed Sean Strickland about Willis Way and am meeting with regional staff about it tomorrow. The issue is that basically no one wants to get off the train and go south away from their trip generator (or worse yet, west to the multi-use trail, which also has bikes whizzing by). People will cross Caroline mid-block. Which could be fine, perhaps. Or maybe pedestrian traffic should be funneled north towards where the trip generators are actually located. This station layout does not respect desire lines.

If you’re meeting with them, please also push the idea that there should also be a pedestrian crossing of Caroline immediately south of Father David Bauer. It’s weird for an intersection in that location to be missing a pedestrian crossing.

At Willis and Caroline, it’s OK not to have pedestrian crossings of Caroline for two reasons: there should be crossings at Father David Bauer and at the north end of the Ion platform, very close to where Willis Way crossings would be anyway; and there is a left turn lane on Caroline which doesn’t fit well with having crossings at Willis Way.

I have to say I’m disappointed by what Galloway said in the article. He acts as if these were unforeseeable. To the contrary, in both of these cases, the problems are obvious just by looking at the plans. Any competent planner inspecting the plans would have noticed the problems without needing to wait for actual people walking to use the stations. Interesting that they haven’t mentioned Frederick, Grand River Hospital, Kitchener Market, or Borden stations which have similar defects in the design (notice that I do not say “problems with people walking in the wrong places”). I wonder when they’ll officially notice people using the “wrong” end of those stations.

[ijmorlan]

But her response was "I didn't see you".

Right, the problem is that she didn’t see you; and she didn’t see you because she didn’t look. Whether or not her car actually came to a full stop is irrelevant. I would never roll a stop in that situation; I would see that there are other cars and stop. It sounds like she needed to wait anyway. But if one can determine that it is safe to proceed before one has finished stopping (for example, because there is no-one anywhere nearby at all), then what is the stop for? It’s just a legally-required ritual with no real-world effect.

I take a similar approach to crossing, as a pedestrian, against a red hand. The rule is different from crossing on a walking person. When it is a walking person, the rule is “is it safe?”. When it is a red hand, the rule is “can any vehicle traffic easily observe me violating their right of way?”. This is very different, and basically means that I won’t cross unless I’m confident that no driver will even have to worry about the fact that I’m crossing. By the time they would even start thinking about what I’m doing, I am already well away from the intersection. This implies of course that I don’t actually cross against a red hand very often, except in a few locations with excellent visibility and very simple traffic flow such as University at the LRT tracks.

[jamincan]

Couldn't they have a crossing zone adjacent to the station, maybe with speed bumps on either side and signed that pedestrians have the right of way in that area. Maybe paint the road with cross-hatching as well to emphasize the point. There are areas where you can safely have pedestrians and cars mingle - you just need cars to slow down sufficiently. King Street around Kitchener City Hall does a pretty good job of it. The surface material change there helps - along with the lack of curb between the sidewalk and street in that area.

[ert86]

I had my first experience with fare inspection this morning.

I'd tapped in at Block Line heading north, and the inspectors apparently boarded at Central wearing the yellow Transit Security vests that I've seen before.  I didn't notice them boarding but there was an announcement "Fare inspectors onboard, show proof of payment."  The two inspectors had boarded at opposite ends and worked their way to the middle, using terminals that looked similar to restaurant debit machines but which probably also had barcode scanners in their ends (I didn't get to see a paper transfers being scanned to confirm).

Despite the train having full seats and about 20 standing passengers, they were done and had met in the middle by Grand River Hospital thanks to everyone having their cards/transfers ready for inspection due to the announcement.  As far as I could tell they didn't have to ticket or warn anybody, and they got off at Laurier / Waterloo Park station.

I was impressed by how courteous, fast, and efficient the whole process was.  Well done guys!

They can scan bar codes (I've seen it). They also caught me on a missed tap (machine appearantly didn't read my card) but just told me since I have a monthly pass (they can see that) to just be sure the machine shows the tap was successful before I walk away from it. (The bad tap was at R&T north side which sometimes displays card info instead of a registered tap).

Last week R&T showed me a monthly pass expiration of 01/05/2024, I wish. Got off at Farmers Market and when I tapped to get back on it was back to expiring this month

[danbrotherston]

Couldn't they have a crossing zone adjacent to the station, maybe with speed bumps on either side and signed that pedestrians have the right of way in that area. Maybe paint the road with cross-hatching as well to emphasize the point. There are areas where you can safely have pedestrians and cars mingle - you just need cars to slow down sufficiently. King Street around Kitchener City Hall does a pretty good job of it. The surface material change there helps - along with the lack of curb between the sidewalk and street in that area.

They *could* have done that, they chose not too, because it was not their priority.  Can you guess what the priority was?

[danbrotherston]

[MidTowner]

I was really disappointed with Galloway's quote in the newspaper, but chalked it up to the Record selectively quoting. I suppose, though, that I should not have given him the benefit of the doubt, after that response from him. But I found the tone of the article annoying. People aren't really making up their own paths; they're just using the paths that make sense.

I e-mailed about Northfield way back because it seemed obvious to me. People will generally be wanting to go west, not east, from the station, since the Region installed the crosswalk across Northfield to the west of the station, and east of the station are a couple of destinations and then the expressway on-ramp. But there is only one legal exit from the station, on the east side of the north end of the platform.

If you're arriving on a Conestoga-bound train wanting to walk west, I guess that the "proper" way to exit the station is to stand awkwardly on the platform in front of the train waiting for it to pass, cross east, walk five metres or so north, then (I guess) wait for the flashing lights to stop, even though you know no train is coming. If you do cross west across the tracks (because you are already inside of the barrier, including the little barrier they have for people approaching from the east on the sidewalk), you get to wait for the arm to lift on the west, even though you've already safely crossed the tracks.

What people are actually doing, of course: walking up the middle of the platform safely out of the path of the Conestoga-bound train they've just disembarked from, checking to make sure there is no Fairway-bound train approaching from the north, crossing the tracks to the west of the platform where there should have been an exit, and either ducking under the arm or congregating awkwardly around it until it starts to lift.

Sorry for going on...in short, arrive to Northfield Station from the south, want to go west as most everyone will, and the "safe" way is to double back across the tracks and maybe in front of the train, instead of just walking west.

[MidTowner]

I have to say I’m disappointed by what Galloway said in the article. He acts as if these were unforeseeable. To the contrary, in both of these cases, the problems are obvious just by looking at the plans. Any competent planner inspecting the plans would have noticed the problems without needing to wait for actual people walking to use the stations. Interesting that they haven’t mentioned Frederick, Grand River Hospital, Kitchener Market, or Borden stations which have similar defects in the design (notice that I do not say “problems with people walking in the wrong places”). I wonder when they’ll officially notice people using the “wrong” end of those stations.

Specifically with Grand River Hospital, I thought it would be a lot of people doing this, but at least from what I've seen it doesn't seem to be. Possibly just a matter of where people's destinations tend to be.

I bet the number of people doing that is rivalled by the number of motorists parking in the little lot on the north side of King at Pine (mostly hospital employees), and jaywalking across King quite close to the signalized crosswalk at Pine.