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St. Patrick's celebrations
(11-28-2018, 10:58 AM)robdrimmie Wrote:
(11-28-2018, 10:49 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: I definitely know about the tent, and, I think its a debatable point to be sure, but I'd argue that this 'tent' wasn't a real attempt at an event.

You can absolutely say "the attempt was bullshit" but saying "I think the event was bullshit so that means it wasn't even tried" is its own special form of bullshit that really doesn't lead to anything resembling constructive conversation.

If you're going to call my argument "bullshit" I will argue about definitions then.

The point is, a tent with paid admission, away from Ezra street isn't an "event" or "festival" by my definition, which I did make clear.  It's not bullshit to say that they haven't even remotely tried what I propose.
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Has any attempt been made to ask the students what they think a solution might look like? Just saying!
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(11-28-2018, 11:44 AM)Ace Wrote: I feel like everyone is missing a major point of this celebration, though Spokes just hinted at it.

The appeal of the event is the chaos. The appeal is drinking alcohol in the middle of the street, in front of a police officer, while standing shoulder to shoulder with 10,000 other students. The appeal is the unstoppable mass that this event has become. 

Putting up a tent in another location, fencing off Ezra and charging admission to cover costs, or any other attempt to organize and legitimize the celebration removes that appeal. The students will find another street where the chaos can continue at no cost to them.

I think the chaos is a factor too.  The lack of structure and freedom to do your own thing shouldn't be ignored.
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(11-28-2018, 11:49 AM)tomh009 Wrote:
(11-28-2018, 11:08 AM)Spokes Wrote: But isn't that what the St Patrick's Day and Homecoming parties are?  It's not like the students are just drinking and partying because they wish there was something else to do.  That's what these parties are.  Does adding food and entertainment really change that?

I don't think food and (appropriate) music would reduce the appeal.

No.  But it doesn't necessarily add to it.  The primary focus is still just one big drinking party
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(11-28-2018, 11:54 AM)danbrotherston Wrote:
(11-28-2018, 11:08 AM)Spokes Wrote: But isn't that what the St Patrick's Day and Homecoming parties are?  It's not like the students are just drinking and partying because they wish there was something else to do.  That's what these parties are.  Does adding food and entertainment really change that?

I think it would, that's what they're doing now, because there is nothing else...Ezra is an empty street otherwise, what else can you do, but drink and mill about.  If there was something, I think they might do that something.  But hey, prove me wrong.

I think that's the primary goal/focus
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(11-28-2018, 11:53 AM)danbrotherston Wrote:
(11-28-2018, 11:44 AM)Ace Wrote: I feel like everyone is missing a major point of this celebration, though Spokes just hinted at it.

The appeal of the event is the chaos. The appeal is drinking alcohol in the middle of the street, in front of a police officer, while standing shoulder to shoulder with 10,000 other students. The appeal is the unstoppable mass that this event has become. 

Putting up a tent in another location, fencing off Ezra and charging admission to cover costs, or any other attempt to organize and legitimize the celebration removes that appeal. The students will find another street where the chaos can continue at no cost to them.

So first of all, this doesn't happen, the police actively enforce no drinking in public during the event.

Second, I enjoy ribfest and other events for that reason as well, it's an event with tons of energy, being an organized event doesn't necessarily detract from that.

Third, there is no admission fees at most of the other events in the city, why are we proposing one here?  Is this *only * about money?

And I really doubt they'll move it, but hey, prove me wrong, organize a real event, with no admission fees, and I'll keep my eye on Lester.

Yes, those hundreds of unmarked water bottles filled with coloured liquids are definitely not alcohol.  Rolleyes Rolleyes Rolleyes

https://youtu.be/QIFc0iHeSfU?t=49
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(11-28-2018, 11:56 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: If you're going to call my argument "bullshit" I will argue about definitions then.

I didn't call your argument bullshit, I called your movement of the goalposts bullshit and an impediment to actual conversation. But it's more fun to rage and claim that people don't listen to you, so rage on.
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(11-28-2018, 02:21 PM)robdrimmie Wrote:
(11-28-2018, 11:56 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: If you're going to call my argument "bullshit" I will argue about definitions then.

I didn't call your argument bullshit, I called your movement of the goalposts bullshit and an impediment to actual conversation. But it's more fun to rage and claim that people don't listen to you, so rage on.

*sigh*...

Yes, so conducive to conversation.

I don't think I moved the goal posts...but carry on accusing me of "raging" and "claiming people don't listen to me"....
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(11-28-2018, 10:37 AM)danbrotherston Wrote:
(11-28-2018, 10:22 AM)Spokes Wrote: It's not a hate for students, it's a hate for the curent situation.

You can try to do an organized event, I just don't think it's going to work.  If you're a student who's under age, are you going to go?  Nope, you can't.  Do you want to pay for the price of drinks when you're used to just buying and bringing your own?  Nope.  Even if you did create a legitimized event, you'd still have a large population of students doing what's going on on Ezra just elsewhere. 

No one's advocating bullying students out of the city, but what's going on now doesn't work in any situation.

It's never even been tried, the whole city has gone straight to "shut it down"...I remember how this feels as a student.  ANY solution that is ONLY "shut it down" is by definition not working for all the people involved.  Suppressing people rarely works out well, best case, you drive away a lot of students who might otherwise have settled in the region.  The point of creating an event is to guide the situation, instead of suppress it, and, plenty of students under age go to other festival events in the city--heck, there might be some who are glad there are other activities from drinking.

Come on Dan. This is what you said, and it's a rather profoundly uncharitable interpretation of the situation. The whole city quite plainly has not gone straight to "shut it down". The fact is that they've done quite the opposite and have tolerated the situation for a long time now and have even tried to provide (a rather poor) alternative. Rather than discuss the substance of what people have said, you keep on painting people as if they're advocating for some sort of war on students, which couldn't be further from the truth.

The fact is that right now there are thousands of people having an illegal party on the Ezra Street, which isn't really a tenable situation in the long term. If it could somehow be made a sanctioned and legal event that can safely operate, I think most people would advocate for that. There is the issue, though, that a large number of partygoers are underage and wouldn't be allowed at any legal and licensed event. That said, I think what you're proposing is probably along the lines of the best option. If you have a credible alternative to the Ezra St. parties that attracts enough people, the parties would die, or at least be more manageable. Illegal file sharing didn't really go away with online music providers and streaming, but it's diminished considerably. The same approach might work for Ezra Street.
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danbrotherston Wrote: It's never even been tried, the whole city has gone straight to "shut it down".

danbrotherston Wrote: I definitely know about the tent, and, I think its a debatable point to be sure, but I'd argue that this 'tent' wasn't a real attempt at an event.

(11-28-2018, 02:39 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: I don't think I moved the goal posts

/jennifer_lawrence_okay.gif
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(11-28-2018, 03:00 PM)jamincan Wrote:
(11-28-2018, 10:37 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: It's never even been tried, the whole city has gone straight to "shut it down"...I remember how this feels as a student.  ANY solution that is ONLY "shut it down" is by definition not working for all the people involved.  Suppressing people rarely works out well, best case, you drive away a lot of students who might otherwise have settled in the region.  The point of creating an event is to guide the situation, instead of suppress it, and, plenty of students under age go to other festival events in the city--heck, there might be some who are glad there are other activities from drinking.

Come on Dan. This is what you said, and it's a rather profoundly uncharitable interpretation of the situation. The whole city quite plainly has not gone straight to "shut it down". The fact is that they've done quite the opposite and have tolerated the situation for a long time now and have even tried to provide (a rather poor) alternative. Rather than discuss the substance of what people have said, you keep on painting people as if they're advocating for some sort of war on students, which couldn't be further from the truth.

The fact is that right now there are thousands of people having an illegal party on the Ezra Street, which isn't really a tenable situation in the long term. If it could somehow be made a sanctioned and legal event that can safely operate, I think most people would advocate for that. There is the issue, though, that a large number of partygoers are underage and wouldn't be allowed at any legal and licensed event. That said, I think what you're proposing is probably along the lines of the best option. If you have a credible alternative to the Ezra St. parties that attracts enough people, the parties would die, or at least be more manageable. Illegal file sharing didn't really go away with online music providers and streaming, but it's diminished considerably. The same approach might work for Ezra Street.

First of all, there is no such thing as an "illegal" party...if there was, the people involved would have been arrested and charged, there are illegal activities that take place during the event, and people are charged for them.  That does not make the event "illegal", and this framing, frankly, is part of the problem I have with the whole discussion on this issue.

And yes, I am ascribing an attitude to the "whole city" which I see mainly portrayed through facebook comments and letters to the editor which is perhaps, unfair, but I can tell you, as a student, that was the attitude I saw representing the city.

I say that the city is not interested in organizing an event, because they absolutely could do so, but choose not too, as for an event, there are no age restrictions at many events, most of those have a separate place for the serving of alcohol.
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I'm pretty sure the Ezra Street parties would be considered unlawful assembly under the Criminal Code, and therefore technically illegal. I'm also pretty sure that participating in a street party without a special event permit from the City of Waterloo would also contravene whatever special events by-law the City of Waterloo has. (It definitely is for the Region, but I can't track down the equivalent by-law for the City).
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(11-28-2018, 03:44 PM)jamincan Wrote: I'm pretty sure the Ezra Street parties would be considered unlawful assembly under the Criminal Code, and therefore technically illegal. I'm also pretty sure that participating in a street party without a special event permit from the City of Waterloo would also contravene whatever special events by-law the City of Waterloo has. (It definitely is for the Region, but I can't track down the equivalent by-law for the City).

This is absolutely not unlawful assembly, if it was, the police would have arrested the people involved.  I'm guessing you weren't there, there was no rioting, no major fights or other disturbances of the peace.

As for the street party, the police are the ones who closed the road, it was open, up until the police decided to close it for public safety, thus, it wasn't a street party.
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You know what would sort this out? A good dose of Mother Nature. Something like what we had in April. Sadly we can't force weather.

However, perhaps blaring student unfriendly music onto Ezra Street might serve that function just as well as horrible weather. What music would be universally unfriendly? Waterloo could hire the city of Kitchener to do the event.
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(11-28-2018, 03:29 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: First of all, there is no such thing as an "illegal" party...if there was, the people involved would have been arrested and charged, there are illegal activities that take place during the event, and people are charged for them.  That does not make the event "illegal", and this framing, frankly, is part of the problem I have with the whole discussion on this issue.

And yes, I am ascribing an attitude to the "whole city" which I see mainly portrayed through facebook comments and letters to the editor which is perhaps, unfair, but I can tell you, as a student, that was the attitude I saw representing the city.

I say that the city is not interested in organizing an event, because they absolutely could do so, but choose not too, as for an event, there are no age restrictions at many events, most of those have a separate place for the serving of alcohol.

No sense of arguing the legality of this.

However, I will say that the event is popular because: 1) you can get shit-faced intoxicated 2) you can be 18 and still drink 3) $20 (or even free) can get you a lot of booze 4) it's a Laurier thing 5) the cops turn a blind eye to drinking on a city owned street.

I think the city knows a sanctioned event would fall flat on its face (in the context of a successful event for Laurier students). They'll limit alcohol to prevent people from getting drunk, they'll refuse to serve under 19 year olds, $20 gets you 2 drinks -- if you're lucky, and it would be inclusive, which means rift-raft from everywhere would be interested in attending, including 30-50 year old creepers gawking at the young females and if you step out of line, the cops will haul your sorry ass to the drunk tank in DT Kitchener, along with a knuckle sandwich as a parting gift from the rookie officer.
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