ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit

[ijmorlan]

It would be nice to have it sorted by September.

Sorting out the ATP system will take longer than September. Sorting out the issues that are restricting speeds will take some time but much less time than fixing the ATP system. The two are being handled separately. It's really worth noting that even with the speed restrictions ION meets or exceeds the travel time requirements in the contract.

Why? What are they doing? What have they been doing for the last 2 years? It’s not like they’re figuring out how to build a Hyperloop or something; this is established, mature technology.

[ijmorlan]

It's not required right now... but once service ramps up to 5 minute frequencies it will be, especially with 5 minute frequency double trains.

Well apparently it’s required right now for full speed. But even putting that aside, what does 5 minute frequency have to do with it? On the 401 buses and trucks operate at 120km/h on LOS with sub-3s headways. Now of course there are collisions every so often but even 5 minute frequency is 100 times less often then typical frequency on a lane of the 401. So again, why is ATP needed to operate what are essentially slightly longer buses at only 70km/h with no random drivers getting in way (obviously slower in tightly curved areas; but I’m talking about the long nearly-straight sections)?

[trainspotter139]

Sorting out the ATP system will take longer than September. Sorting out the issues that are restricting speeds will take some time but much less time than fixing the ATP system. The two are being handled separately. It's really worth noting that even with the speed restrictions ION meets or exceeds the travel time requirements in the contract.

Why? What are they doing? What have they been doing for the last 2 years? It’s not like they’re figuring out how to build a Hyperloop or something; this is established, mature technology.

The technology itself may be established and mature but each implementation is completely custom. That customized nature can make for some interesting situations when you actually try to implement the technology. An imperfect implementation can easily turn a technology that is designed to improve safety and efficiency into a safety and efficiency problem.

[trainspotter139]

It's not required right now... but once service ramps up to 5 minute frequencies it will be, especially with 5 minute frequency double trains.

Well apparently it’s required right now for full speed. But even putting that aside, what does 5 minute frequency have to do with it? On the 401 buses and trucks operate at 120km/h on LOS with sub-3s headways. Now of course there are collisions every so often but even 5 minute frequency is 100 times less often then typical frequency on a lane of the 401. So again, why is ATP needed to operate what are essentially slightly longer buses at only 70km/h with no random drivers getting in way (obviously slower in tightly curved areas; but I’m talking about the long nearly-straight sections)?

ATP is not required for full speed for the time being.

[tomh009]

Tunnelling here would be possible, as it is pretty much anywhere except maybe through the core of an active volcano or something like that. However, it would be ridiculously expensive. Through Uptown, it would have to go under the creek, which means either very tricky tunnelling through muck or going very deep, either of which is expensive. Given the traffic levels and the availability of space on the surface, this simply doesn’t make sense, and as pointed out by others, would have led to non-approval of the project.

On top of the tunneling costs, underground stations (and their associated access, using escalators and elevators) would have added huge costs to the project.

What we have is very much appropriate for Waterloo Region. We also have the option of giving trains traffic light priority should that make sense in the future.

[jamincan]

This is the most important bit. I don't see why tunneling here would be technically not possible, but I do know that it would not be achievable politically. We had a significant fight to get LRT; a more expensive system that involved tunnelling in some but not other parts of the line would not have achieved the necessary support.

The two cities are in completely different contexts. Many more middle-class and professional Ottawans take transit and have experienced how having buses operate in mixed traffic downtown wastes time and resources. A completely separate right of way is probably much easier to sell to them.

Tunnelling here would be possible, as it is pretty much anywhere except maybe through the core of an active volcano or something like that. However, it would be ridiculously expensive. Through Uptown, it would have to go under the creek, which means either very tricky tunnelling through muck or going very deep, either of which is expensive. Given the traffic levels and the availability of space on the surface, this simply doesn’t make sense, and as pointed out by others, would have led to non-approval of the project.

In Ottawa the traffic levels are enormously higher. Also, the tunnelled section is high ground consisting of rock, and only a small fraction of the route. As a result, the tunnel more or less continues the grade of the non-tunnelled portion so they could just start digging in from the side. Because it is all rock, they were able to mine it; to my knowledge Ottawa didn’t use any tunnel-boring machines.

You're correct that the Ottawa tunnel was mined. It wasn't entirely straightforward, though. There was a section just east of the Rideau Canal that crossed an old river bed that is now basically just sand. They had quite a bit of trouble getting through that section, including dealing with a massive sinkhole. https://obj.ca/article/rideau-sinkhole-c...ity-report

[KevinT]

Sorting out the ATP system will take longer than September.

Why? What are they doing? What have they been doing for the last 2 years? It’s not like they’re figuring out how to build a Hyperloop or something; this is established, mature technology.

The Automatic Train Protection (ATP) system is part of the Free Issue Equipment (FIE) that was obtained separately from the Bombardier contract. There's been some debate whether Metrolinx was originally supposed to spec it and then dropped the ball after their lines all got delayed, or whether it was the Region's job to spec it from the get go. That's closed door stuff I doubt we'll ever know the answers to. Either way, it appears to have been ordered late (in a low volume specialized market like this even 'off-the-shelf' equipment is not actually sitting on a shelf waiting to be ordered) and so didn't arrive at Bombardier for installation into the trains until about this time last year, with half the trains only getting it installed here in Waterloo last fall. They didn't have a lot of time to play with it with a full complement of trains running before launch on June 21st, and given that the ATP system's job is to keep trains from running into each other you're really not testing it until that full complement of trains is out there. Unfortunately the clock ran out on this one, but fortunately they've been able to hit the initial service targets without it. It only gets better from here...

[ijmorlan]

Well apparently it’s required right now for full speed. But even putting that aside, what does 5 minute frequency have to do with it? On the 401 buses and trucks operate at 120km/h on LOS with sub-3s headways. Now of course there are collisions every so often but even 5 minute frequency is 100 times less often then typical frequency on a lane of the 401. So again, why is ATP needed to operate what are essentially slightly longer buses at only 70km/h with no random drivers getting in way (obviously slower in tightly curved areas; but I’m talking about the long nearly-straight sections)?

ATP is not required for full speed for the time being.

Then why don’t they run at full speed? I don’t believe they are exceeding 50km/h on the ATP sections even though speeds up to 70km/h are posted in many areas.

[ijmorlan]

On top of the tunneling costs, underground stations (and their associated access, using escalators and elevators) would have added huge costs to the project.

What we have is very much appropriate for Waterloo Region. We also have the option of giving trains traffic light priority should that make sense in the future.

Excellent point, and this is also the main reason why elevated (including monorails) wasn’t going to happen here.

I agree that what we have is very appropriate. In the future, however, is where the real benefit of LRT will arrive: Flexibility! We could run essentially an interurban to Elmira; or another line down Fischer-Hallman; or streetcar operation in downtown Kitchener or elsewhere (mixed traffic); or even a subway in some part of the system if the Region grows way beyond what anybody is imagining now. Whatever is appropriate at the time and in the place can be done as an extension of a single system.

Although the current OMSF can only handle approximately double the current fleet size as to storage, I suspect it could handle a significantly larger fleet as to operations and maintenance: I’m pretty sure they have most of the maintenance bays mostly to allow them to do all the things they need to be able to do, not because they really expect to work on 4 or more vehicles all at once with 14 in the entire fleet. So significant extensions would be possible with only the addition of storage tracks somewhere.

[ac3r]

Tunneling here certainly could have worked. They could have used cut and cover tunneling. It would have not been a whole lot harder than what they did to install the LRT on downtown streets, you just dig down further, reinforce the walls, lay the track and fill it up again. The only thing is, there's more cost involved with cut and cover tunneling.

I can concede this just wouldn't have happened here. I nonetheless really hope to see the ION use higher speeds in the near future.

[MidTowner]

What if any motivation does Grandlinq have to improve speeds beyond those laid out in the project agreement?

[danbrotherston]

Tunneling here certainly could have worked. They could have used cut and cover tunneling. It would have not been a whole lot harder than what they did to install the LRT on downtown streets, you just dig down further, reinforce the walls, lay the track and fill it up again. The only thing is, there's more cost involved with cut and cover tunneling.

I can concede this just wouldn't have happened here. I nonetheless really hope to see the ION use higher speeds in the near future.

The low speeds can be overcome in most places.  The tight turns will always be slow, but the slow speeds on the straight sections right now have nothing to do with the lack of tunnels and only come from the abject terror that our society seems to have about anything that isn't a car or truck traveling at any speeds above a jog.

[ijmorlan]

Tunneling here certainly could have worked. They could have used cut and cover tunneling. It would have not been a whole lot harder than what they did to install the LRT on downtown streets, you just dig down further, reinforce the walls, lay the track and fill it up again. The only thing is, there's more cost involved with cut and cover tunneling.

I can concede this just wouldn't have happened here. I nonetheless really hope to see the ION use higher speeds in the near future.

Not through Uptown Waterloo. There is a creek running right across immediately below ground level. They would have to go under the creek. I don’t know anything about the ground conditions in Kitchener downtown, but even cut-and-cover, assuming it could be used, would be fantastically more expensive than what we actually built.

[Bob_McBob]

Both 511 and 512 have been hit by turning drivers so far today.

https://www.reddit.com/r/waterloo/commen...ts_so_far/?

[MidTowner]

Another thread on reddit claimed that there was a ~40 minute delay to Ion as a result. Not good.