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Change Kitchener's name back to Berlin?
Berlin also operated horrific concentration camps in southern Africa that resulted in tens of thousands of deaths. If we're going to change the name to avoid associations with genocide, Berlin isn't a great choice.
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(06-30-2021, 10:45 AM)jwilliamson Wrote: Berlin also operated horrific concentration camps in southern Africa that resulted in tens of thousands of deaths. If we're going to change the name to avoid associations with genocide, Berlin isn't a great choice.

Berlin did? The city did that? Or someone named Berlin?

A city is just a city.
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Maybe he was thinking of Irving Berlin ...
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(06-30-2021, 11:34 AM)tomh009 Wrote:
(06-30-2021, 10:45 AM)jwilliamson Wrote: Berlin also operated horrific concentration camps in southern Africa that resulted in tens of thousands of deaths. If we're going to change the name to avoid associations with genocide, Berlin isn't a great choice.

Berlin did? The city did that? Or someone named Berlin?

A city is just a city.

The people living in Berlin did that.
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(06-30-2021, 02:39 PM)jwilliamson Wrote:
(06-30-2021, 11:34 AM)tomh009 Wrote: Berlin did? The city did that? Or someone named Berlin?

A city is just a city.

The people living in Berlin did that.

On that criterion, I think we can disqualify just about any city in the world: there have been bad people living everywhere. We might as well rename just Kitchener to xyzzy.

That said, I'm not promoting any renaming, Berlin or otherwise.
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(06-30-2021, 10:45 AM)jwilliamson Wrote: Berlin also operated horrific concentration camps in southern Africa that resulted in tens of thousands of deaths. If we're going to change the name to avoid associations with genocide, Berlin isn't a great choice.

The point is that the name “Kitchener” commemorates somebody who expanded what we now call concentration camps and did a bunch of other stuff we wouldn’t necessarily want to commemorate:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Ki..._Kitchener

By contrast the name “Berlin” is basically Swampville, if I understand correctly:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin#Etymology

As someone pointed out, we can’t rule out a name because people from a place with that name did bad things. For starters, every single settlement in Germany would have to be renamed, which is clearly absurd.

That being said, I don’t actually think we need to rename Kitchener; the name is now more salient as this city with lots of tech companies and other things than as the guy who did the stuff. The original reason for the naming is an educational fact of historical interest.

Note, for similar reasons I think the current move to rename Dundas St. in Toronto is very questionable. It’s not even named after the person but after the town which is named after the person. At a certain point, we’re not really commemorating the person; and the historical knowledge that at one time we did commemorate such people is better maintained by not renaming than by renaming.
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I don't think we should be renamed due to the name. The name is ours now. Most people don't have any clue who Lord Kitchener was. Kitchener refers to the city in this day and age, not that old bastard.

That said, if there are any old portraits, plaques or statues of him in official buildings, I would happily vote to get rid of those. We don't need to plaster his face in government buildings.
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(06-30-2021, 08:08 PM)ac3r Wrote: I don't think we should be renamed due to the name. The name is ours now. Most people don't have any clue who Lord Kitchener was. Kitchener refers to the city in this day and age, not that old bastard.

That said, if there are any old portraits, plaques or statues of him in official buildings, I would happily vote to get rid of those. We don't need to plaster his face in government buildings.

The only local representations I’ve seen are at the local history collection in Victoria Park.  Most people would be familiar with his face from the famous WWI “Britons Want You” recruitment poster.
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(06-30-2021, 08:08 PM)ac3r Wrote: I don't think we should be renamed due to the name. The name is ours now. Most people don't have any clue who Lord Kitchener was. Kitchener refers to the city in this day and age, not that old bastard.

That said, if there are any old portraits, plaques or statues of him in official buildings, I would happily vote to get rid of those. We don't need to plaster his face in government buildings.

I am almost certain City Hall still has a huge picture of him on the 2nd floor by the rotunda, towards the entrance for councillors and mayor. It was there last time I was at city hall (maybe 2 years ago).

Again, I don't think we should ever name anything or anyone or any street, city, or whatever, after any person, alive or dead. We discover so many douchebags after the fact. People that we looked up to. People we thought were great. Then nasty history comes out, and we are "woke", as the new expression is now. Sometimes history is really bad, like Lord Kitchener, who affected literally 100's of thousands. Perhaps some molested a few dozen children. Some involved in scandals and ripping off taxpayers. Whatever the case, we honour this assholes then have to figure out what to do when the sh*t hits the ceiling.

Yet, we still name things after people. We never learn.
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(06-30-2021, 08:32 PM)panamaniac Wrote: The only local representations I’ve seen are at the local history collection in Victoria Park.  Most people would be familiar with his face from the famous WWI “Britons Want You” recruitment poster.

Unless the city moved it, Kitchener City Hall still has(d) a portrait of Lord Kitchener, as mentioned in my above post. What is odd, we already had known what Kitchener had done, yet the portrait was still there. Sometimes it takes a few nudged to get movement to get rid of legacy items that have no right existing in this world. But I haven't been to city hall for at least 18 months, due to lock-down. So they may have removed it.
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(06-30-2021, 08:34 PM)jeffster Wrote: I am almost certain City Hall still has a huge picture of him on the 2nd floor by the rotunda, towards the entrance for councillors and mayor. It was there last time I was at city hall (maybe 2 years ago).

Well that's a shame. I know there was a petition launched in 2020 to rename the city because of his past. It is actually included in the Wikipedia article, with a response from the City of Kitchener quoted as "While we in no way condone, diminish or forget his actions ... Kitchener has become so much more than its historic connection to a British field marshal." Fair, we don't need to rename ourselves because we have, in a sense, appropriated that name for ourselves (even if it came from him).

I would definitely support the removal of any portraits of him hanging in city hall or any other offices in the city, however. I don't know if city hall is yet open to the public or not but if anyone knows, please let me know, I'll go in and check to see if there is a portrait when I'm downtown again. I'd support having that removed at the very least. Surely sensible people would be willing to support such a motion, with the exception of people that think concentration camps are okay. Then again the city might just put out some statement similar to that one quoted above. "While we in no way condone, diminish or forget his actions ... we think it's still appropriate to immortalize him in a giant portrait in our main government building."

Edit: City Hall is only open for appointments only as we're stuck in Phase 1. Once it opens up, I'll go check it out and see if his portrait is there. If it is, I'd be willing to send some letters and attempt to start a petition to get it removed. I have a lot of connections across the region with organizations and groups (especially students and BIPOC organizations) that would likely support the removal of any portraits of this monster. I could probably get more than the 380 signatures that were on the petition to rename Kitchener.
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If the portrait is removed, I think 2 things should happen:

1) In its place, not necessarily exactly the same location but in a place that is nearby and appropriate, replace it with some sort of commemoration which explains the origin of the city name (including the name change history) and which, while acknowledging briefly the negative legacy of the name, primarily talks about what a great place Kitchener is today. For example, maybe the portrait could be replaced by a mural that reflects today’s pluralistic society, with a plaque that gives some of the history; the best wall for this wouldn’t necessarily be the exact same wall that now hosts the portrait.

2) Move the portrait to a museum and include it in an exhibit which, among other things, explains the full history of the posting of the portrait, when it was posted, when it was removed, whatever we know about discussions related to both of these events, and anything else that seems relevant.

Depending on the exact nature of the portrait, I might even support leaving it in place but changing its labelling; based on the description, however, that it is a large and presumably complimentary depiction which dominates the space it is in, removal is probably more appropriate in this case.

As to the petition, you could probably get more per capita than there were on the renaming petition. Not sure how many that would be, but definitely a lot more than 380. Not sure how others feel but I would prefer to sign a petition which calls for a replacement display to be developed and the portrait to be moved to a museum than one that simply calls for removal. That way we are for something rather than against something. It’s too easy to be against things; being for something requires a bit more thought.
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