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Trails
(01-17-2019, 05:08 PM)Viewfromthe42 Wrote: As exciting as PXOs can be (if done properly, such that a bicycle can easily trigger them without needing to dismount), some of the quiet streets where it is mostly residential I would still prefer to see as speed tables where signage would indicate that road traffic must yield to the trail users. We have many such streets that Spur Line and Iron Horse trails cross, and in neighbourhoods asking for traffic calming.

Palmer and Kent both should have a re-leveling, so that it is not such a painful bump to go from trail-roadway-trail. Several of the Spur line crossings between Guelph and UpTown show this very well.

Crossrides at Stirling would be great *IF* all four crossings get them. Otherwise, you could wait 3 cycles to cross, if they only go on half the crossings.

A PXO doesn't preclude a speed table.  As for signage requiring road users to yield to trail users, PXO *is* the signage, and the ONLY legal way to do so (at least that the city would consider).
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What is the justification for the rule that cyclists need to walk their bikes through a PXO?
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The justification?

That the HTA hasn't been updated properly to allow crossrides under a PXO...I suspect it won't be under the current regime. Literally no other reason, crossrides are allowed on other types of crossings.

The root of the problem is that only Ontario needs this "special" "made in Ontario" type of crossing that's governed distinctly from crosswalks.
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(01-17-2019, 07:08 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: The justification?

That the HTA hasn't been updated properly to allow crossrides under a PXO...I suspect it won't be under the current regime. Literally no other reason, crossrides are allowed on other types of crossings.

The root of the problem is that only Ontario needs this "special" "made in Ontario" type of crossing that's governed distinctly from crosswalks.

Combined with a lack of creativity from our designers. Make the path a road with no general traffic lanes, only bicycle lanes and sidewalks. Install normal traffic lights. Voilà!

And while it’s an example of what might be called creative compliance, it also has the benefit of treating the active transportation route as co-equal with motor vehicle routes: it’s a road, not some second-class “pathway”.
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(01-17-2019, 10:21 PM)ijmorlan Wrote:
(01-17-2019, 07:08 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: The justification?

That the HTA hasn't been updated properly to allow crossrides under a PXO...I suspect it won't be under the current regime. Literally no other reason, crossrides are allowed on other types of crossings.

The root of the problem is that only Ontario needs this "special" "made in Ontario" type of crossing that's governed distinctly from crosswalks.

Combined with a lack of creativity from our designers. Make the path a road with no general traffic lanes, only bicycle lanes and sidewalks. Install normal traffic lights. Voilà!

And while it’s an example of what might be called creative compliance, it also has the benefit of treating the active transportation route as co-equal with motor vehicle routes: it’s a road, not some second-class “pathway”.

Yeah, I think I did ask the question of whether MUTs were governed by the HTA, certainly there's an argument to be made that they are...as you are making, and I think that wouldn't be unreasonable.  It's certainly an interesting philosophical question.

But it does subject them to a substantial number of regulations and standards that don't otherwise apply.  For example the scooter pilot couldn't happen, it was only allowed because the trails *weren't* roads, where scooters are technically illegal.  I'm sure there are signage and similar issues.

Regardless, we could do better, but at this point, whats proposed is so vastly better than what we have, even I'm not going to complain about the proposal.

As an aside, I have no idea what the laws in the Netherlands are, but there at least, the priority is on the design itself making sense...I.e., it looks right, red pathways continues through an intersection when the red pathways (the cycle track) has the right of way, it doesn't when it doesn't...so visual cues mean that everyone knows what to do without really having to read, understand, and be familiar with the laws and signage.

I sure wish we'd do that...
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Pedestrian island being considered where Spurline Trail crosses Union Street in Waterloo - CBC.ca
For daily ion construction updates, photos and general urban rail news, follow me on twitter! @Canardiain
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(Yesterday, 08:37 AM)Canard Wrote: Pedestrian island being considered where Spurline Trail crosses Union Street in Waterloo - CBC.ca

I don’t know whether to be pleased that they are doing it, or annoyed that they dismissed that suggestion from me when I made it at a public meeting about the trail before construction (and started blathering something about pedestrian crossovers instead). It obviously should be done; and even if later an official crossover or signals are installed, the island would still make sense.

Now I just hope they build it big enough. Anybody want to start a pool on whether it will actually be big enough? Recent precedent is not encouraging.
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(Yesterday, 10:59 AM)ijmorlan Wrote:
(Yesterday, 08:37 AM)Canard Wrote: Pedestrian island being considered where Spurline Trail crosses Union Street in Waterloo - CBC.ca

I don’t know whether to be pleased that they are doing it, or annoyed that they dismissed that suggestion from me when I made it at a public meeting about the trail before construction (and started blathering something about pedestrian crossovers instead). It obviously should be done; and even if later an official crossover or signals are installed, the island would still make sense.

Now I just hope they build it big enough. Anybody want to start a pool on whether it will actually be big enough? Recent precedent is not encouraging.

Lol, I'm glad it'll be done...

I suspect that city staff really wanted a different design, like a crossover or a signal, but couldn't get the region to agree.  Which is part of why this is so delayed.  Of course, maybe that should all have been public.

My only concern is that I think Union should get bike lanes, and that may become impossible with an island.
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(Yesterday, 11:04 AM)danbrotherston Wrote:
(Yesterday, 10:59 AM)ijmorlan Wrote: I don’t know whether to be pleased that they are doing it, or annoyed that they dismissed that suggestion from me when I made it at a public meeting about the trail before construction (and started blathering something about pedestrian crossovers instead). It obviously should be done; and even if later an official crossover or signals are installed, the island would still make sense.

Now I just hope they build it big enough. Anybody want to start a pool on whether it will actually be big enough? Recent precedent is not encouraging.

Lol, I'm glad it'll be done...

I suspect that city staff really wanted a different design, like a crossover or a signal, but couldn't get the region to agree.  Which is part of why this is so delayed.  Of course, maybe that should all have been public.

My only concern is that I think Union should get bike lanes, and that may become impossible with an island.

What does the Region have to do with it? Is Union a Regional road?

Agreed the discussion should have been public. Way too much of this stuff happens in private, as if they were discussing which type of blind to install in their offices, rather than an important component of the public realm.
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(Yesterday, 02:59 PM)ijmorlan Wrote:
(Yesterday, 11:04 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: Lol, I'm glad it'll be done...

I suspect that city staff really wanted a different design, like a crossover or a signal, but couldn't get the region to agree.  Which is part of why this is so delayed.  Of course, maybe that should all have been public.

My only concern is that I think Union should get bike lanes, and that may become impossible with an island.

What does the Region have to do with it? Is Union a Regional road?

Agreed the discussion should have been public. Way too much of this stuff happens in private, as if they were discussing which type of blind to install in their offices, rather than an important component of the public realm.

The region controls all traffic signals, including those on city owned roads.
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(Yesterday, 10:59 AM)ijmorlan Wrote:
(Yesterday, 08:37 AM)Canard Wrote: Pedestrian island being considered where Spurline Trail crosses Union Street in Waterloo - CBC.ca

I don’t know whether to be pleased that they are doing it, or annoyed that they dismissed that suggestion from me when I made it at a public meeting about the trail before construction (and started blathering something about pedestrian crossovers instead). It obviously should be done; and even if later an official crossover or signals are installed, the island would still make sense.

Now I just hope they build it big enough. Anybody want to start a pool on whether it will actually be big enough? Recent precedent is not encouraging.

Aw jeez. I didn't think of that. I'll be pleasantly surprised if it's large enough for a human to cram next to a stroller, let alone a person with a bike, or two.

I'm in favour of cluttering up Union with anything that can be dreamt up. A PXO would be great, an island would be great. Anything. The road is way overbuilt east of Moore, and that's the reason the trail crossing doesn't work, and the intersection at Moore can feel so unsafe. I think the trail crossing would need no special infrastructure, if it weren't for motorists getting ready for a road that suddenly allows them to drive really fast.
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