Urban Chickens

[MidTowner]

The Record had an article yesterday about a woman whose chickens were taken by the Humane Society, and who would like to have Kitchener's ban on urban chickens lifted. These animals were adjacent to Mount Hope Cemetary; I'm familiar with them (having noted them while walking in the cemetary), but have no opinion about these ones in particular. Actually, my next door neighbour in a nearby neighbourhood used to have them (until someone alerted the human society), and although I was aware of them and could occasionally hear them, I had no opinion one way or another.

I know that it's something that many people do feel strongly about, though. As noted in the article, a number of municipalities allow and regulate urban chickens, and it's a topic that has come up for debate lately here, as well as in London and Hamilton in the neighbourhood.

Any thoughts here? If the debate is reopened, I wonder what the main points will be. One thing worth noting is that the protagonist of the Record's article says we ought to allow them as Guelph does, but Guelph's bylaw requires the chickens be kept a minimum of fifty feet away from any neighbour, so she may well not be permitted them even if our regulations mirrored theirs.

[panamaniac]

When I was a kid, our neighbour had a chicken coop at the back of their yard. It never posed any problem (not even the rooster). In that case, they would probably have met the Guelph requirement of being fifty feet from any neighbour, as the yards were quite deep. Given the reality of modern yards, however, fifty feet seems a bit excessive.

[goggolor]

This is sad - I live very close to these chickens (within rock-throwing distance, not that I would ever throw a rock at a chicken) and have never had any issue with their presence in the neighbourhood. There's never been any noise or smell associated with them. All they did was make walking through the cemetery more interesting.

[timio]

The only time I could see them being an issue is if they decided to include a rooster in the pen. They don't smell any more than a compost heap or pile of dog excrement and barely cause any noise. The annoyingly broken dryer exhaust fan at my apartment building is louder than the chickens would ever be, but no one seems to care about that.

[clasher]

I don't think people should really be keeping chickens in the city. They are a lot of work and it makes for some really expensive eggs. My aunt has chickens but she lives in the country... I don't think the eggs are all that much better than the eggs sold at the farmer's market. They get a lot of money spent on them too, with nice food and lots of kitchen scraps and so on. I think backyard chickens are kind of an idealized "local food" thing that doesn't make sense when you look at the actual cost of feeding and raising such a small flock of birds. Freakonomics did a bit local food that tries to crunch some numbers about just how inefficient local production is. I love the farmer's market and fresh produce from this area but it's certainly more expensive and something I feel privileged to be able to afford. I'm personally of the mind farming should be kept to the country where it belongs, not in dense cities.

[panamaniac]

Is the by-law limited to chickens or does it extend to things like pigeons and rabbits? I remember a neighbour who used to raise chincillas in his basement - I wonder if that would be kosher today?

[mpd618]

I don't think people should really be keeping chickens in the city. They are a lot of work and it makes for some really expensive eggs. ...

How is that at all relevant to whether people should be allowed to do so? That is the question - whether this should be something prohibited by by-law, or not.

People engage in all kinds of arguably "unproductive" activities - fixing up old cars, canning jams, growing vegetables. Sure, you can make claims that economically those things don't make sense. But it does not matter whether they make sense to an economist, it matters whether they make sense to the people doing them - and those people take into account things other than money.

Oh, and our endless suburban expanses are hardly so dense as to make the concept of backyard chickens ridiculous.

[tomh009]

The fundamental question, of course, is whether residential zoning should permit agricultural activity. And if it should, what kind of limits should there be?

[MidTowner]

Oh, and our endless suburban expanses are hardly so dense as to make the concept of backyard chickens ridiculous.

The majority of urban chicken owners really will be fairly urban rather than suburban. You'll have more in neighbourhoods like Mount Hope than Stanley Park, let alone Deer Park or wherever. I tend to think they should be allowed, with a limit on the number of birds and maybe a ban on roosters, as long as you can keep them a reasonable distance away from neighbours. I agree with panamaniac that fifty feet seems excessive- my neighbours used to have their birds less than thirty feet from my home, and I never noticed the smell and only from time to time the noise. For things like smell and whatnot, that would be covered under other bylaws I would imagine, and the humane society could always get involved (if the smell is from improper cleaning of the coop).

[clasher]

I don't think people should really be keeping chickens in the city. They are a lot of work and it makes for some really expensive eggs. ...

How is that at all relevant to whether people should be allowed to do so? That is the question - whether this should be something prohibited by by-law, or not.

People engage in all kinds of arguably "unproductive" activities - fixing up old cars, canning jams, growing vegetables. Sure, you can make claims that economically those things don't make sense. But it does not matter whether they make sense to an economist, it matters whether they make sense to the people doing them - and those people take into account things other than money.

Oh, and our endless suburban expanses are hardly so dense as to make the concept of backyard chickens ridiculous.

To quote the person the linked article "Wall said benefits include pest control, nutritious eggs from a known source, a reduced carbon footprint because they are made right at home and community awareness." that's why I brought it up. It's an ancillary point of discussion that people who support changing the by-law are constantly touting and I don't think it really supports the case since a bit of critical thinking would lead one to see that using a lot of extra resources for 4 birds isn't reducing anyone's carbon footprint at all.

I don't think keeping chickens should be allowed in city limits. Chicken manure smells disgusting and maybe 4 birds on a block won't cause problems but a few coops on a block would start to cause more odour issues. How many urban yards in KW have space that is 15m away from a neighbour? The endless suburban expanses might have room in some places but a lot of subdivisions seem tightly packed to me.


There are also by-laws about repairing cars to an extent; people can't run junkyards at home or keep cars up on blocks in the front yard. Fixing a car up in your garage is okay but running impact wrenches late at night isn't because that crap prevents reasonable enjoyment of other people's space. There's no by-laws preventing canning but you can't just start canning stuff at home and selling it since that would start to affect other people. I think that's the crux of this whole debate, a backyard chicken coop might not bother the owners much and they benefit from it but the smells and sounds drift over fence lines. These folks should just move to the country where one can engage in hobby farming without running afowl of existing bylaws.

[mpd618]

I don't think keeping chickens should be allowed in city limits. Chicken manure smells disgusting and maybe 4 birds on a block won't cause problems but a few coops on a block would start to cause more odour issues. How many urban yards in KW have space that is 15m away from a neighbour? The endless suburban expanses might have room in some places but a lot of subdivisions seem tightly packed to me.

Backyard compost smells disgusting when poorly managed. Yet composting is allowed, with by-laws that allow for enforcement if there is an actual issue.

There's no by-laws preventing canning but you can't just start canning stuff at home and selling it since that would start to affect other people. I think that's the crux of this whole debate, a backyard chicken coop might not bother the owners much and they benefit from it but the smells and sounds drift over fence lines.

The claim is that the impact is no more than that of things currently allowed, like dogs, children, composters, lawn mowers, barbecues, curry, music, laughter, etc.

I think by-laws like these aren't about smells and sounds, but rather about people wanting to preserve some kind of suburban ideal that is divorced both from the city and from the country.

[clasher]

My opposition doesn't stem from some sort of suburban idealism, I live in one of the densest areas of the city and I don't think there's really enough room in this neighbourhood to keep chickens in anyone's back yard. They stopped keeping other livestock in cities before the suburbs were a thing and I think that was progress. Urban noise and stink issues have improved in the last 100 years and I don't think we should allow hobby farming in the city. The slippery slope argument can also be made that if we start allowing a couple chickens then we'll have to consider goats and pigs too, I mean a small pig isn't much bigger or louder than a couple dogs...

[Smore]

I don't think people should really be keeping chickens in the city. They are a lot of work and it makes for some really expensive eggs. ...

How is that at all relevant to whether people should be allowed to do so? That is the question - whether this should be something prohibited by by-law, or not.

People engage in all kinds of arguably "unproductive" activities - fixing up old cars, canning jams, growing vegetables. Sure, you can make claims that economically those things don't make sense. But it does not matter whether they make sense to an economist, it matters whether they make sense to the people doing them - and those people take into account things other than money.

Oh, and our endless suburban expanses are hardly so dense as to make the concept of backyard chickens ridiculous.

This. All this. +1

The fundamental question, of course, is whether residential zoning should permit agricultural activity. And if it should, what kind of limits should there be?

All home offices now banned! Commercial in a Residential zone!
No more homework! Institutional in a residential zone!

absurd? yes, but so is claiming 4 hens is an agricultural activity. not more than gardening

[Smore]

ps, by a quick measurement, the hen house in question is actually about 50 ft from the next house...

[gomesjustin]

How is that at all relevant to whether people should be allowed to do so? That is the question - whether this should be something prohibited by by-law, or not.

People engage in all kinds of arguably "unproductive" activities - fixing up old cars, canning jams, growing vegetables. Sure, you can make claims that economically those things don't make sense. But it does not matter whether they make sense to an economist, it matters whether they make sense to the people doing them - and those people take into account things other than money.

Oh, and our endless suburban expanses are hardly so dense as to make the concept of backyard chickens ridiculous.

This.  All this.  +1

The fundamental question, of course, is whether residential zoning should permit agricultural activity.  And if it should, what kind of limits should there be?

All home offices now banned!  Commercial in a Residential zone!
No more homework!  Institutional in a residential zone!

absurd?  yes, but so is claiming 4 hens is an agricultural activity.  not more than gardening

A little bit of a stretch that urban chickens is no more than gardening? Keeping live chickens does qualify as an agricultural activity. 

Does 4 chickens in an urban setting really hurt anyone? Probably not. But let that slide and that opens the flood gates to bending by-laws. The rules should be straightened and reinforced, whether good for the chickens or not.