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Downtown outdoor spaces
#61
I'm hoping that there won't be too much resistance from the "we're spending too much Downtown" voices as this works its way through Council. This project is badly needed.
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#62
It looks like a really fantastic plan. I hope it gets approved relatively unchanged.

It is sad to see how many comments were in the vein of "turn it into a parking lot" and "get rid of the street people". But seems like those comments were really quite the minority or the (highly self selected) group.
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#63
I somehow missed it the first time through, but the same page the plan view came from also has a street section showing a 3.0 metre sidewalk on each side, and vehicle lanes of 3.1 metres with mountable curbs. The interesting part of this is that earlier in the report it suggests the minimum width for snow clearing equipment is 3.4 metres. I'm guessing the curb design makes the difference. Either way, it is good to see wide sidewalks and narrowing of the vehicle lanes in downtown.

   
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#64
(08-15-2017, 03:46 PM)highlander Wrote: I somehow missed it the first time through, but the same page the plan view came from also has a street section showing a 3.0 metre sidewalk on each side, and vehicle lanes of 3.1 metres with mountable curbs. The interesting part of this is that earlier in the report it suggests the minimum width for snow clearing equipment is 3.4 metres. I'm guessing the curb design makes the difference. Either way, it is good to see wide sidewalks and narrowing of the vehicle lanes in downtown.

That is interesting they mention that.  I know the region and the city has different standards, it is highly unlikely the region would build such a road even in such a contextually appropriate location.

I don't believe the snowplows are actually 3.4 meters wide, i.e., I believe they will actually fit down a 3.1 meter wide road, it is more an issue of the speed at which they can travel safely, without risking entering the oncoming lane.  I speculate that narrowing the road "increases costs" because plows will have to drive more slowly.  But that's a bit silly here given that the road is already going to limit speeds.

I suspect you are right the curb design makes it more palatable to the engineers as well.
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#65
(08-15-2017, 03:46 PM)highlander Wrote: I somehow missed it the first time through, but the same page the plan view came from also has a street section showing a 3.0 metre sidewalk on each side, and vehicle lanes of 3.1 metres with mountable curbs. The interesting part of this is that earlier in the report it suggests the minimum width for snow clearing equipment is 3.4 metres. I'm guessing the curb design makes the difference. Either way, it is good to see wide sidewalks and narrowing of the vehicle lanes in downtown.

It’s a pretty good plan, but I’d be happier if they made the street one-way: one lane, one-way, westbound. Eastbound traffic can duck down to Benton/Frederick at either Courtland or Charles. This would free up a lot more space for the pedestrian realm, and/or allow bicycle lanes (both ways, of course) to be installed. The total number of people moved by the traffic lanes is probably minuscule compared to the pedestrian and bicycle traffic so I don’t see why motor vehicles should get half the space.
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#66
Westbound on Queen St North and South.  Love this town!
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#67
(08-15-2017, 04:46 PM)panamaniac Wrote: Westbound on Queen St North and South.  Love this town!

I should have said southbound. You can tell I’m from Waterloo — for me, King St. goes north-south, even the east-west-labelled part of it, and the other streets fall into line. Tongue

But really I should use Kitchener directions when talking about Kitchener. Northbound traffic can use Benton/Frederick. Speaking of which, does anybody know why those streets have two separate names?
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#68
(08-15-2017, 05:48 PM)ijmorlan Wrote: But really I should use Kitchener directions when talking about Kitchener. Northbound traffic can use Benton/Frederick. Speaking of which, does anybody know why those streets have two separate names?

They used to be like Queen at King - not an exact straight connection - but it was even more skewed. It was easy to give them different names.

In the 70s the whole area was rebuilt, and the connection was straightened.
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#69
(08-15-2017, 05:48 PM)ijmorlan Wrote:
(08-15-2017, 04:46 PM)panamaniac Wrote: Westbound on Queen St North and South.  Love this town!

I should have said southbound. You can tell I’m from Waterloo — for me, King St. goes north-south, even the east-west-labelled part of it, and the other streets fall into line.  Tongue

But really I should use Kitchener directions when talking about Kitchener. Northbound traffic can use Benton/Frederick. Speaking of which, does anybody know why those streets have two separate names?

Its even worse, the region sometimes uses Waterloo directions when talking about regional roads in Kitchener.
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#70
(08-15-2017, 06:45 PM)KevinL Wrote:
(08-15-2017, 05:48 PM)ijmorlan Wrote: But really I should use Kitchener directions when talking about Kitchener. Northbound traffic can use Benton/Frederick. Speaking of which, does anybody know why those streets have two separate names?

They used to be like Queen at King - not an exact straight connection - but it was even more skewed. It was easy to give them different names.

In the 70s the whole area was rebuilt, and the connection was straightened.

Yes, Benton was a rather narrow two lane street - the old, old, old Post Office was on the corner, where Speakers Corners is now located and that building extended out into what is now Benton.  It came down in the mid-60s, if memory serves.
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#71
(08-15-2017, 06:45 PM)KevinL Wrote:
(08-15-2017, 05:48 PM)ijmorlan Wrote: But really I should use Kitchener directions when talking about Kitchener. Northbound traffic can use Benton/Frederick. Speaking of which, does anybody know why those streets have two separate names?

They used to be like Queen at King - not an exact straight connection - but it was even more skewed. It was easy to give them different names.

In the 70s the whole area was rebuilt, and the connection was straightened.

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. And actually now that I look at the map in light of that, it’s easy to see the slight adjustments made to the roads to make them match up. Now if we could just narrow Benton back to two lanes (plus turn lanes). I think there is a lot of wasted asphalt there…
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#72
(08-15-2017, 04:25 PM)ijmorlan Wrote: It’s a pretty good plan, but I’d be happier if they made the street one-way: one lane, one-way, westbound. Eastbound traffic can duck down to Benton/Frederick at either Courtland or Charles. This would free up a lot more space for the pedestrian realm, and/or allow bicycle lanes (both ways, of course) to be installed. The total number of people moved by the traffic lanes is probably minuscule compared to the pedestrian and bicycle traffic so I don’t see why motor vehicles should get half the space.

I suspect there wouldn't be much appetite for one-way streets in the core at the moment, given how recently Duke and Charles were turned back into two-way streets.  Also, a single lane makes it very difficult for emergency vehicles to be able to pass any blocking traffic.

I walk on Queen St (between Highland and Lancaster) a lot, and, really, the pedestrian traffic is far less than that on King St.  Bicycle traffic is substantially lighter yet. I don't see much evidence that car traffic is minuscule compared to those.  City of Kitchener traffic counts show roughly 10K vehicles/day in the two blocks surrounding King St.
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#73
(08-16-2017, 03:53 AM)tomh009 Wrote:
(08-15-2017, 04:25 PM)ijmorlan Wrote: It’s a pretty good plan, but I’d be happier if they made the street one-way: one lane, one-way, westbound. Eastbound traffic can duck down to Benton/Frederick at either Courtland or Charles. This would free up a lot more space for the pedestrian realm, and/or allow bicycle lanes (both ways, of course) to be installed. The total number of people moved by the traffic lanes is probably minuscule compared to the pedestrian and bicycle traffic so I don’t see why motor vehicles should get half the space.

I suspect there wouldn't be much appetite for one-way streets in the core at the moment, given how recently Duke and Charles were turned back into two-way streets.  Also, a single lane makes it very difficult for emergency vehicles to be able to pass any blocking traffic.

I walk on Queen St (between Highland and Lancaster) a lot, and, really, the pedestrian traffic is far less than that on King St.  Bicycle traffic is substantially lighter yet. I don't see much evidence that car traffic is minuscule compared to those.  City of Kitchener traffic counts show roughly 10K vehicles/day in the two blocks surrounding King St.

Interesting. I would have thought that pedestrian traffic would be high in that location but maybe the destinations just aren’t in those particular blocks. If the pedestrian traffic does increase however in the future then giving a lane back from cars to pedestrians should be considered. If there are also bicycle lanes (both ways), then the emergency vehicle problem should be minimized.

I think there is a big difference between a pair of wide one-way streets pretending to be an expressway and a two-lane road from which one of the lanes is returned to pedestrian/cycle use. The former is just planners wishing they could build an expressway while the latter is telling drivers that while they are allowed to drive downtown, they must do so in a way that doesn’t inconvenience pedestrians.

It will be interesting to see how different modes of use of the area change over the next few years.
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#74
Tom, where do you find City of Kitchener traffic counts?

Queen could probably be closed to vehicle traffic entirely through downtown, given the excess capacity of Frederick and Benton. But I would rather see Frederick and Benton narrowed and made more civilized.
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#75
(08-16-2017, 08:39 AM)MidTowner Wrote: Tom, where do you find City of Kitchener traffic counts?

http://app.kitchener.ca/opendata/ds_deta...x?dsid=119
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