General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - Printable Version +- Waterloo Region Connected (https://www.waterlooregionconnected.com) +-- Forum: Land Development and Real Estate (https://www.waterlooregionconnected.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=4) +--- Forum: Urban Areas (https://www.waterlooregionconnected.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=5) +--- Thread: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours (/showthread.php?tid=8) Pages:
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
204
205
206
207
208
209
210
211
212
213
214
215
216
217
218
219
220
221
222
223
224
225
226
227
228
229
230
231
232
233
234
235
236
237
238
239
240
241
242
243
244
245
246
247
248
249
250
251
252
253
254
255
256
257
258
259
260
261
262
263
264
265
266
267
268
269
270
271
272
273
274
275
276
277
278
279
280
281
282
283
284
285
286
287
288
289
290
291
292
293
294
295
296
297
298
299
300
301
302
303
304
305
306
307
308
309
310
311
312
313
314
315
316
317
318
319
320
321
322
323
324
325
326
327
328
329
330
331
332
333
334
335
336
337
338
339
340
341
342
343
344
345
346
347
348
349
350
351
352
353
354
355
356
357
358
359
360
361
362
363
364
365
366
367
368
369
370
371
372
373
|
RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - MidTowner - 11-14-2015 (11-14-2015, 12:10 PM)Smore Wrote: As far as the properties go, is it not generally accepted that used car dealerships are a transient type and that any interim occupation of a property by a used car dealers is one giant leap ahead of a derelict building or empty, blocked off parking lot? At least its functional use! No doubt that a used car lot is better than no use at all. I found it disappointing because the last I had heard about this location, there was a possibility that a grocery store was going to locate there. I think that would have been great, and I think it's a shame that won't come to pass. Your second point is a really good one. The 20 Ottawa lot will still by and large be a lot ready for redevelopment if and when someone thinks that makes sense. RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - mpd618 - 11-14-2015 (11-14-2015, 09:48 AM)ookpik Wrote: I've been concerned that it may be difficult to find enough new occupants to fill these projects without depressing property prices and rents, i.e. that a RE bubble may be forming along the route. (What would be so bad about depressing property prices and rents?) RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - ookpik - 11-14-2015 (11-14-2015, 07:08 PM)mpd618 Wrote: (What would be so bad about depressing property prices and rents?)Are you buying or selling? RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - mpd618 - 11-15-2015 (11-14-2015, 11:14 PM)ookpik Wrote:(11-14-2015, 07:08 PM)mpd618 Wrote: (What would be so bad about depressing property prices and rents?)Are you buying or selling? I'm interested in more people being able to live and work in urban areas next to transit, and that means that lower rent choices are available to those who want them. I do own a home, but that's neither here nor there. RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - ookpik - 11-15-2015 I appreciate that. Of course as a buyer you'd like to see RE values low so that more people can afford to live and work along the LRT. No argument there. I would suggest to you that this sort of intensification will succeed only if the developers can benefit, i.e. profit, from this as well. We're discussing why the Ottawa St property isn't being redeveloped. Put yourself in the position of a potential developer. In fact a developer who owned the property since 2012 did just that. Presumably they know more about this sort of stuff than we do. Yet they decided to sell the property rather than develop it. And they sold it to someone, a car dealer, who likely isn't going to have to invest much new money into it in order to operate his business on it. This is consistent with my speculation that there may be a RE bubble forming along the LRT route. Lots of RE is getting developed with new residential and business capacity. We both agree that this is good. All this activity also drives up prices for anyone who wants to buy land and redevelop it. That's also fine if they can find buyers/renters. But what if too much capacity gets built too soon? Prices will drop and developers will start losing money. Why would a developer, especially one who's looking to enter the fray fairly late, want to risk being part of that? George claims he didn't want to sit on land that he didn't want to develop. That land also wasn't generating any revenue so his investment was losing money by way of opportunity costs, property tax, maintenance, etc. Wright bought the property from him because it solved an immediate business problem--he could grow his business--and it also gave him the option to redevelop the property in the future if LRT-based intensification made that a viable business proposition. I don't see a problem. Is there a shortage of residential and/or commercial space along the LRT route? Will there be a shortage when LRT service begins? I suspect no to both. So what's the big rush to redevelop even more land right away? Why would anyone want to take that risk if they don't have to? RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - BuildingScout - 11-15-2015 (11-15-2015, 10:37 AM)ookpik Wrote: We're discussing why the Ottawa St property isn't being redeveloped. Put yourself in the position of a potential developer. In fact a developer who owned the property since 2012 did just that. Presumably they know more about this sort of stuff than we do. Yet they decided to sell the property rather than develop it. And they sold it to someone, a car dealer, who likely isn't going to have to invest much new money into it in order to operate his business on it. You give the developer far too much credit. First, it seems to me that he was always looking to flip it. First to the Toronto supermarket investors, now to Wright Auto Sales when the former fell through. Second, a developer might choose to pass for many reasons other than the development not being viable.
RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - clasher - 11-15-2015 There's also the completely empty gravel lot on the south-east corner of Ottawa and King that's beside towne bowl and the lube-n-go... not nearly as big but it's just empty. The BMO also has a substantial lawn and a lot of parking spaces. It's an intersection I avoid if at all possible. RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - ookpik - 11-15-2015 (11-15-2015, 11:01 AM)BuildingScout Wrote: • Maybe his trusty contractor is busy with other projects?In a booming market some developers will compromise their standards and engage whoever they can find. Usually the result is subpar quality. Quote:• maybe they exhausted their network of investors with other ongoing projects and cannot presently secure the cash to finance the project?A booming market attracts greedy developers and greedy investors who are ill-equipped to weather the storm of a downturn. Sometimes their projects go bust leaving partly completed buildings in their wake and home buyers who've lost both their deposits and their future homes. Quote:• maybe he just doesn't understand LRT and has the wrong growth projections?]\Especially greedy developers and greedy investors who want in on "a sure thing." Quote:the Waterloo InnAnother huge tract of RE that will eventually get redeveloped. (In the meantime it would make a great car dealership mall just like the one next to it [ducks] ) I'm all for redevelopment and intensification. But I'd rather it be done gradually in a rational way rather than hurriedly in a bubble. RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - MidTowner - 11-15-2015 (11-15-2015, 01:48 PM)ookpik Wrote: I'm all for redevelopment and intensification. But I'd rather it be done gradually in a rational way rather than hurriedly in a bubble. Perhaps a lot of redevelopment doesn't happen as a result of rational deliberation on the part of market actors, but instead from irrational euphoria during a bubble. I have no idea, but your comment reminded me of an article I once read: http://www.forbes.com/2011/03/10/skyscrapers-burj-dubai-leadership-leaders-bubbles.html That's discussing a different scale of development than we are in this Region, of course. I remember finding it neat, though. It's true that there have been a lot of developments along the Ion line, and particularly in the University Zone. I also personally think we're probably in a residential real estate bubble generally in this country. But as far as developments in Kitchener, until recently very few rental properties have been built for quite a while. I wonder how many more condo projects the market can support along the King Street corridor, but I'm not sure what evidence there is that that area specifically is in a bubble. RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - nms - 11-16-2015 (11-14-2015, 08:57 AM)MidTowner Wrote: That is discouraging news. Here's what the article said about the two Waterloo properties: "Wright Automotive Sales started in Waterloo in 2001 with a little lot at 89 Bridgeport Rd., which is located beside its current operation in Waterloo. Wright will retain that property, so it will have a presence in Kitchener, Waterloo and Cambridge." When I first read the article, I interpreted that "that property" was 89 Bridgeport Rd. RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - tomh009 - 11-16-2015 (11-14-2015, 09:48 AM)ookpik Wrote: The Record article points out that the Ottawa location "has been vacant since 2013. Patrick George, a well-known home builder in Kitchener whose family owns G&A Masonry in Breslau and Deer Ridge Heights Inc., bought the 1.3 hectare property in 2012. It is a high-profile location on an arterial roadway that is zoned as a mixed-use corridor by the City of Kitchener in its latest official plan. It is a short walk to the light rail train station..." Presumably potential buyers knew that and yet couldn't justify a high enough offer to outbid Wright. Actually, the way I interpreted the article is that Wright is leasing the property, not buying it (I re-read three times and I did not spot any reference to the property being sold). And this makes sense, George wants to wait for the LRT completion before taking on a major construction project, and in the meantime Wright can lease the property "as is" without significant renovations. RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - ookpik - 11-16-2015 (11-16-2015, 03:43 PM)tomh009 Wrote: Actually, the way I interpreted the article is that Wright is leasing the property, not buying it (I re-read three times and I did not spot any reference to the property being sold).By George! Wright you are! I've reread the article I don't see anything explicit about buying or leasing either. Good catch and thanks. Quote:And this makes sense, George wants to wait for the LRT completion before taking on a major construction project, and in the meantime Wright can lease the property "as is" without significant renovations.That's still consistent with my speculation that the owner, whoever it is, wants to speculate on the property while at the same time derive income from the land and the structures on it. RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - MidTowner - 11-17-2015 (11-16-2015, 03:26 PM)nms Wrote:(11-14-2015, 08:57 AM)MidTowner Wrote: That is discouraging news. That's what I understood initially, too, but then I found it a bit unclear and second-guessed. Thanks for your interpretation: I think you're likely right that it's talking about 89 Bridgeport, and not the Weber Street property. RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - JCnb - 11-18-2015 Not sure if this is picked up elsewhere? Manulife moving workers to downtown Kitchener RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - tomh009 - 11-18-2015 (11-18-2015, 05:42 PM)JCnb Wrote: Not sure if this is picked up elsewhere? It's in the general business updates thread. |