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+--- Thread: Highway 7 - Kitchener to Guelph (/showthread.php?tid=225)
RE: Highway 7 - Kitchener to Guelph - Acitta - 03-17-2022
The GO bus to Bramalea runs hourly all day. It takes about the same amount of time as the train. I have never been on a bus that is full, though usage has picked up in the last couple of months.
RE: Highway 7 - Kitchener to Guelph - danbrotherston - 03-17-2022
(03-17-2022, 04:41 PM)plam Wrote:(03-17-2022, 02:31 PM)jamincan Wrote: The March 2021 Preliminary Design Business Case for 2WAD service to Kitchener outlined two options [1], but did not recommend one approach over the other. The first, cheaper one requires only improvements to the line and the addition of passing tracks and second platforms at select stations. Work on these improvements was taking place last year and I expect we will see work continue this year. The second option involves a rail-rail grade separation east of Georgetown allowing Kitchener Line and CN traffic to cross without interfering. This would allow greater operational flexibility and reduce travel times for Kitchener-Union trips from the 98 minutes under the first option to 90 minutes with the grade separation. Metrolinx has just recently announced notice of expropriation of land along the Halton Subdivision [2] where the Silver Junction grade separation would be, which, while not evidence of proceeding with Option 2, is at least evidence that they are keeping that option available.
It seems to me that they have the business case outlining what is needed for 2WAD service, and that we have seen progress on that front this past year, so I think that we have enough evidence to allow some measure of optimism.
1. https://www.metrolinx.com/en/regionalplanning/projectevaluation/benefitscases/2021-03-04-Kitchener-Mid-Term-Service-Expansion-PDBC-FINAL.pdf
2. https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/go-transit-construction-projects-metrolinx-various.9023/page-709#post-1798499
The PDBC is an interesting read, but I thought it is important to point out that even with Option 1, which has no grade separation at Silver Junction, Metrolinx would be able to provide hourly 2WAD service as well as 30-min peak service to Toronto in AM and from Toronto in PM. The second option just allows greater operational flexibility and speed.
Yeah, I'm a bit more optimistic than Bytor. The GO running time is now 1h43 = 103 minutes, which is the same as the old VIA time. (VIA now runs in 1h34 but there's now only 1 service a day). 90 minutes would be pretty good indeed.
The running time is relevant, but not the key part. Frequency and service is the key, and I still see little evidence that the proposed improvements will actually achieve it.
The other aspect is reliability, and I see that already failing. One big advantage of taking the train over driving is that it is more reliable. One crash on the 401 could add 2 hours to my drive.
The Metrolinx plan seems very fragile to me, trains will be waiting on sidings to pass, which means any delay in any train will impact many other trains.
(And 1.5 hours is still too slow, during the rare good traffic moment, I can still drive it in significantly less).
RE: Highway 7 - Kitchener to Guelph - danbrotherston - 03-17-2022
Also, I read the Metrolinx plan, I continue to be unimpressed with Metrolinx's business plans. Like many types of plans, they are mostly bullshit. They assume zero other changes as a result of their projects, like for example, we could invest in the GO train and eliminate billions of dollars of 401 expansion. But that's not even considered.
All businesses cases are documents which seek to justify an agenda, pretending otherwise is a strategy.
RE: Highway 7 - Kitchener to Guelph - KevinL - 03-17-2022
I'm hopeful that once the contract for the 'GO Expansion' project (electrification of the core network, new trains and signals) is officially awarded (selected bidding consortium includes Deutsche Bahn and Alstom), that the expertise they bring in also guides details beyond the core network. But with how this province runs things, I won't hold my breath.
RE: Highway 7 - Kitchener to Guelph - Bytor - 03-17-2022
(03-17-2022, 02:31 PM)jamincan Wrote: The March 2021 Preliminary Design Business Case for 2WAD service to Kitchener outlined two options [1], but did not recommend one approach over the other. The first, cheaper one requires only improvements to the line and the addition of passing tracks and second platforms at select stations. Work on these improvements was taking place last year and I expect we will see work continue this year. The second option involves a rail-rail grade separation east of Georgetown allowing Kitchener Line and CN traffic to cross without interfering. This would allow greater operational flexibility and reduce travel times for Kitchener-Union trips from the 98 minutes under the first option to 90 minutes with the grade separation. Metrolinx has just recently announced notice of expropriation of land along the Halton Subdivision [2] where the Silver Junction grade separation would be, which, while not evidence of proceeding with Option 2, is at least evidence that they are keeping that option available.
It seems to me that they have the business case outlining what is needed for 2WAD service, and that we have seen progress on that front this past year, so I think that we have enough evidence to allow some measure of optimism.
1. https://www.metrolinx.com/en/regionalplanning/projectevaluation/benefitscases/2021-03-04-Kitchener-Mid-Term-Service-Expansion-PDBC-FINAL.pdf
2. https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/go-transit-construction-projects-metrolinx-various.9023/page-709#post-1798499
The PDBC is an interesting read, but I thought it is important to point out that even with Option 1, which has no grade separation at Silver Junction, Metrolinx would be able to provide hourly 2WAD service as well as 30-min peak service to Toronto in AM and from Toronto in PM. The second option just allows greater operational flexibility and speed.
If you read that business case carefully, you'll notice that it gives only vague mention to weekend service, walking back much of the language of the business case report from 2019, which talked about hourly off-peak weekdays and every other hour weekend.
Also, those two different options you mention are only about the Silver Junction east of Georgetown, not anything to do with the bottleneck between Bramalea and Georgetown which is only two tracks from Mt. Pleasant to Georgetown and parts of Bramalea to Mt.Pleasant.
All that other work hasn't been strictly necessary to allow #2WADGO. Sure, it makes it a smoother trip and has knocked about 20 minutes off the trip time (now down to about 1h43m on some trips), but it wasn't blocker preventing hourly or better service all the way out to Kitchener the way the B/G bottleneck does.
RE: Highway 7 - Kitchener to Guelph - jamincan - 03-17-2022
Metrolinx outlines the major works on page 45:
It seems to me looking at that that Metrolinx will likely be starting work on a second platform in Guelph based on work they did last fall which would fall under the 2WAD and the land acquisitions strongly suggest they intend to proceed with the rail-rail grade separation. Regardless, they are doing stuff beyond the BAU scenario.
RE: Highway 7 - Kitchener to Guelph - KevinT - 03-19-2022
(03-17-2022, 07:36 PM)Bytor Wrote: Also, those two different options you mention are only about the Silver Junction east of Georgetown, not anything to do with the bottleneck between Bramalea and Georgetown which is only two tracks from Mt. Pleasant to Georgetown and parts of Bramalea to Mt.Pleasant.
Silver Junction is the cap on that bottleneck though, because as it stands today, mainline CN freight entering and leaving at the junction ultimately has to cross the Kitchener-Union passenger traffic running through it. The majority of the CN traffic going through there runs between the southwest (Hamilton) and northeast (Vaughan), while all the passenger traffic goes between the northwest (Kitchener) and southeast (Toronto/Union). A fly-over at Silver would route passenger trains overtop of the freight, completing a crossover without competing for schedule time. It's not as good as the Missing Link, which would have been a proper future-proofing of both the Kitchener and Milton lines with a future Crosstown service thrown in, but it's far far better than the status quo which treats the entire Georgetown to Bramalea section as a stretched out diamond with a passing siding.
Edit to add: The signal gantries between Mt Pleasant and Georgetown GO are set up for three tracks, and the bridge piers at the Credit River already support a third track as well. Brampton GO and its immediate surroundings are the only true bottleneck once a Silver Junction flyover is complete, and a far shorter one than the entire Georgetown to Bramalea corridor.
RE: Highway 7 - Kitchener to Guelph - jeffster - 04-29-2022
Aaaaaaand — like clockwork, the Highway 7 is magically back in the budget for everyone to see. I predicted this is an election promise, like it has been the last 40 years, and will continue for the next 40 I am sure.
Quote:Highlights include:
Planning one of the most ambitious capital plans in the province’s history, with planned investments over the next 10 years totalling $158.8 billion, including $20 billion in 2022–23.
Investing $25.1 billion over the next 10 years to support the planning and construction of highway projects across the province, including:
Building Highway 413
Building the Bradford Bypass
The first steps to enable the future widening of Highway 401
Improving the QEW Garden City Skyway
Continuing the next phase of construction for the new Highway 7 between Kitchener and Guelph
Reconstructing Highway 101, the Timmins Connecting Link
Investing $61.6 billion over 10 years for public transit, including:
Breaking ground on the Ontario Line
Advancing planning work for the Sheppard Subway Extension
Planning and design work for the Eglinton Crosstown West Extension to Toronto Pearson International Airport
The Bowmanville GO Rail Extension
Weekday GO Rail trips between London and Union Station in Toronto
Passenger rail service to Northeastern Ontario.
https://news.ontario.ca/en/release/1002123/ontarios-plan-to-build
RE: Highway 7 - Kitchener to Guelph - danbrotherston - 04-29-2022
(04-29-2022, 06:10 AM)jeffster Wrote: Aaaaaaand — like clockwork, the Highway 7 is magically back in the budget for everyone to see. I predicted this is an election promise, like it has been the last 40 years, and will continue for the next 40 I am sure.
Quote:Highlights include:
Planning one of the most ambitious capital plans in the province’s history, with planned investments over the next 10 years totalling $158.8 billion, including $20 billion in 2022–23.
Investing $25.1 billion over the next 10 years to support the planning and construction of highway projects across the province, including:
Building Highway 413
Building the Bradford Bypass
The first steps to enable the future widening of Highway 401
Improving the QEW Garden City Skyway
Continuing the next phase of construction for the new Highway 7 between Kitchener and Guelph
Reconstructing Highway 101, the Timmins Connecting Link
Investing $61.6 billion over 10 years for public transit, including:
Breaking ground on the Ontario Line
Advancing planning work for the Sheppard Subway Extension
Planning and design work for the Eglinton Crosstown West Extension to Toronto Pearson International Airport
The Bowmanville GO Rail Extension
Weekday GO Rail trips between London and Union Station in Toronto
Passenger rail service to Northeastern Ontario.
https://news.ontario.ca/en/release/1002123/ontarios-plan-to-build
This is the budget that DoFo stated on the record would not be followed if he wins the election?
Why is anyone bothering to even cover this news I have to ask.
RE: Highway 7 - Kitchener to Guelph - jamincan - 04-29-2022
(04-29-2022, 06:10 AM)jeffster Wrote: Aaaaaaand — like clockwork, the Highway 7 is magically back in the budget for everyone to see. I predicted this is an election promise, like it has been the last 40 years, and will continue for the next 40 I am sure.
Quote:Highlights include:
Planning one of the most ambitious capital plans in the province’s history, with planned investments over the next 10 years totalling $158.8 billion, including $20 billion in 2022–23.
Investing $25.1 billion over the next 10 years to support the planning and construction of highway projects across the province, including:
Building Highway 413
Building the Bradford Bypass
The first steps to enable the future widening of Highway 401
Improving the QEW Garden City Skyway
Continuing the next phase of construction for the new Highway 7 between Kitchener and Guelph
Reconstructing Highway 101, the Timmins Connecting Link
Investing $61.6 billion over 10 years for public transit, including:
Breaking ground on the Ontario Line
Advancing planning work for the Sheppard Subway Extension
Planning and design work for the Eglinton Crosstown West Extension to Toronto Pearson International Airport
The Bowmanville GO Rail Extension
Weekday GO Rail trips between London and Union Station in Toronto
Passenger rail service to Northeastern Ontario.
https://news.ontario.ca/en/release/1002123/ontarios-plan-to-build
Notice how conveniently unspecific it is: "the next phase of construction"... and that is? Cutting down the brush that has regrown in the corridor? Actually building the damn thing already? Sending out a flashy brochure talking about it? That could be anywhere from $10 of spending to $1 billion.
RE: Highway 7 - Kitchener to Guelph - bravado - 04-29-2022
"The first steps to enable the future widening of Highway 401"
I feel like the 401 has been already widened over the years...
RE: Highway 7 - Kitchener to Guelph - westwardloo - 04-29-2022
Building HWY 413
Building Bradford bypass
Continuing the next phase of hwy 7 - haha what a joke. They have not done anything on this project in 4 years. I wonder if it has anything to do with a NDP MPP in kitchener and a Green MPP in guelph? This project probably doubled in cost thanks to the conservatives delays. I doubt they can even use the original engineering reports for tender, Basically starting again from scratch. Im sure if Dougie and his friends owned all the land beside this HWY we would have had it built right away. I doubt this region will get any money from a conservative provincial government for the next phase of the LRT. Muskoka got a larger hospital funding announce then we did.
RE: Highway 7 - Kitchener to Guelph - ac3r - 04-29-2022
More election pandering... I don't even pay much attention when it's election time. All they do is give us a bunch of blatant lies they call promises, but then in reality we tend to never see anything happen.
This is why I'm cynical about us ever having good train service here anytime soon, even though a few Ford fans try to tell me "no no it's all in the plans, just wait".
RE: Highway 7 - Kitchener to Guelph - ijmorlan - 04-29-2022
(04-29-2022, 08:41 AM)jamincan Wrote: Notice how conveniently unspecific it is: "the next phase of construction"... and that is? Cutting down the brush that has regrown in the corridor? Actually building the damn thing already? Sending out a flashy brochure talking about it? That could be anywhere from $10 of spending to $1 billion.
I’m hoping for the access roads around the interchange in Kitchener. Those are actually useful links that would give us two new grade-separated crossings of the railway and take the pressure off the Lancaster St. crossing.
But I’m fully expecting to be disappointed. They’ll probably build the abutments for the Grand River crossing or some such.
RE: Highway 7 - Kitchener to Guelph - jamincan - 04-29-2022
(04-29-2022, 01:37 PM)ijmorlan Wrote:(04-29-2022, 08:41 AM)jamincan Wrote: Notice how conveniently unspecific it is: "the next phase of construction"... and that is? Cutting down the brush that has regrown in the corridor? Actually building the damn thing already? Sending out a flashy brochure talking about it? That could be anywhere from $10 of spending to $1 billion.
But I’m fully expecting to be disappointed. They’ll probably build the abutments for the Grand River crossing or some such.
I dunno... sounds awfully ambitious for a mere election promise.