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General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - Printable Version

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RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - panamaniac - 05-25-2020

(05-25-2020, 05:47 PM)tomh009 Wrote: That would be good ... but I can't find any prior discussion (other than panamaniac's proposal to do the same, last summer!).
 I am a terrible rumour monger!  It’s just me whipping out my magical development wand ....


RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - danbrotherston - 05-25-2020

(05-25-2020, 04:49 PM)creative Wrote: I believe that it was reported on here that Delta is to be closed as a street and repurposed as a trail and green space. Most likely in conjunction with whatever is planned for this location. My guess would be higher end apartment rentals for downsizing seniors.

Indeed you are correct. Currently the street needs underground utilities reconstructed, the city is proposing that when it is rebuilt, it is reconstructed as a MUT instead, along with an additional trail along Sydney to connect with the IHT via Nyberg.

The Delta site is expected to be redeveloped, but AFAIK they are not co-ordinating with the city's reconstruction of Delta in any way beyond my suggestion that the proposed site design include a connection to the trail (provided what is proposed makes sense to connect to a trail....which it would for any kind of residential facilities).


RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - creative - 05-25-2020

Proposed connection to get to the golf course? I’m sure that discussions are going on behind the scenes.


RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - tomh009 - 05-25-2020

(05-25-2020, 05:53 PM)panamaniac Wrote:
(05-25-2020, 05:47 PM)tomh009 Wrote: That would be good ... but I can't find any prior discussion (other than panamaniac's proposal to do the same, last summer!).
 I am a terrible rumour monger!  It’s just me whipping out my magical development wand ....

Big Grin

So, I did manage to dig up a few tidbits. First, the property is designated as high-density mixed-used in the PARTS plan:
http://kitchener.ca.granicus.com/MetaViewer.php?view_id=2&clip_id=829&meta_id=47152

Second, the city staff is indeed proposing to close Delta St and convert it into a bicycle/pedestrian trail, and add some green space. The roadway is 6.6m wide, but there is significant space beyond that (the trees next to the road are on city property, probably at least 20m in width. It could be quite nice, especially if they move the fence a little bit toward the golf course.
https://www.therecord.com/news/waterloo-region/2020/03/12/kitchener-to-add-bike-lanes-convert-street-into-trail.html


RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - tomh009 - 05-25-2020

(05-25-2020, 08:24 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: The Delta site is expected to be redeveloped, but AFAIK they are not co-ordinating with the city's reconstruction of Delta in any way beyond my suggestion that the proposed site design include a connection to the trail (provided what is proposed makes sense to connect to a trail....which it would for any kind of residential facilities).

Delta St curves over and ends (at the intersection with Preston St and Floral Cres) roughly at the corner of the property for the development project, so it would be super easy for them to connect to the trail.


RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - Momo26 - 05-29-2020

Shifting gears a bit, has there been any known cancellations or major delays (putting off) of developments in Kitchener noting what is expected to be the prolonged global recession if not economic depresion to come?

Moreover, as tech and other companies shift focus to keeping people working from home longer and on a more permanent basis, not needing as much reality, is there a risk this surge of growth in Kitchener comes to a crawl? It sucks if that's the case - wish we got through the next 3 years of all planned and likely growth!


RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - tomh009 - 05-29-2020

I have yet to see any project cancellations. The only ones that have been halted recently are Drewlo (they stopped everything) and 335 King St W; I fully expect them to resume.

The vast majority of the DTK projects are residential, which is likely not going to be significantly impacted by people working from home.


RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - danbrotherston - 05-29-2020

(05-29-2020, 01:39 PM)tomh009 Wrote: I have yet to see any project cancellations. The only ones that have been halted recently are Drewlo (they stopped everything) and 335 King St W; I fully expect them to resume.

The vast majority of the DTK projects are residential, which is likely not going to be significantly impacted by people working from home.

I think the assumption/fear is that when companies start doing more work from home, then people won't have to move to the region in order to work for a company in the region.

I do think this fear is unfounded however, because while we are all work from home 100% now, most companies do a flex environment, where you WFH some days, and not others, which means you still end up being in the office a few times a month at least, even coming from Toronto, that's barely feasible, so I suspect most people will still locate here.

That being said, I suppose it is possible that some companies see the price of their office space, and decide to go fully remote, with no office space, and then it really doesn't matter where one lives, and that could affect realestate, (of course, it would also seriously affect commercial realestate as well).  But I don't think this is likely.


RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - panamaniac - 05-29-2020

(05-29-2020, 01:39 PM)tomh009 Wrote: I have yet to see any project cancellations. The only ones that have been halted recently are Drewlo (they stopped everything) and 335 King St W; I fully expect them to resume.

The vast majority of the DTK projects are residential, which is likely not going to be significantly impacted by people working from home.

Unless it dawns on people that being stuck in a 600sqft box for 20 hours a day is less appealing than moving further out to get more space.  The suburbs/exurbs could see some action if it really doesn't matter where you live anymore.


RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - danbrotherston - 05-29-2020

(05-29-2020, 03:28 PM)panamaniac Wrote:
(05-29-2020, 01:39 PM)tomh009 Wrote: I have yet to see any project cancellations. The only ones that have been halted recently are Drewlo (they stopped everything) and 335 King St W; I fully expect them to resume.

The vast majority of the DTK projects are residential, which is likely not going to be significantly impacted by people working from home.

Unless it dawns on people that being stuck in a 600sqft box for 20 hours a day is less appealing than moving further out to get more space.  The suburbs/exurbs could see some action if it really doesn't matter where you live anymore.

I don't think the people who live in downtown Toronto do so for jobs, I think they do so because they want to live in downtown Toronto.


RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - dtkvictim - 05-29-2020

(05-29-2020, 03:37 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:
(05-29-2020, 03:28 PM)panamaniac Wrote: Unless it dawns on people that being stuck in a 600sqft box for 20 hours a day is less appealing than moving further out to get more space.  The suburbs/exurbs could see some action if it really doesn't matter where you live anymore.

I don't think the people who live in downtown Toronto do so for jobs, I think they do so because they want to live in downtown Toronto.
I find this highly unlikely, although I'm certainly biased as someone who would never live downtown Toronto.

According to this page: https://www.toronto.ca/city-government/data-research-maps/research-reports/planning-development/living-in-downtown-and-the-centres/
Quote:Compared with the rest of the City, Downtown and the Centres have:
  • more adults in their twenties and thirties;
  • more single person households; and
  • fewer families with children.
I think this implies the average living space is much too small in our urban center. When people want to move in with their partners, and especially if they want to have children, 600sqft is not enough space. It can also be that many people (such as me) don't think North American downtowns are a good place to raise a family.
Quote:For Downtown residents, being close to work was the most important reason.
And this is certainly a direct argument against your claim. Although many factors beyond that go in to making the decision where to live...

And while I haven't seen cause and effect properly established, studies about density and happiness (usually life satisfaction) clearly shows people are less happy living in urban centers.


RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - ac3r - 05-29-2020

(05-29-2020, 03:02 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: I do think this fear is unfounded

It definitely is. Covid-19 is a deadly virus, but we're most certainly going to triumph over it in a year or two. People won't be working from home forever. Worst case scenario, we don't see as many office developments proposed in the next couple years as people and businesses recover financially. But, once things are back to normal, human society will not really change much.


RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - danbrotherston - 05-29-2020

(05-29-2020, 04:11 PM)dtkvictim Wrote:
(05-29-2020, 03:37 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: I don't think the people who live in downtown Toronto do so for jobs, I think they do so because they want to live in downtown Toronto.
I find this highly unlikely, although I'm certainly biased as someone who would never live downtown Toronto.

According to this page: https://www.toronto.ca/city-government/data-research-maps/research-reports/planning-development/living-in-downtown-and-the-centres/
Quote:Compared with the rest of the City, Downtown and the Centres have:
  • more adults in their twenties and thirties;
  • more single person households; and
  • fewer families with children.
I think this implies the average living space is much too small in our urban center. When people want to move in with their partners, and especially if they want to have children, 600sqft is not enough space. It can also be that many people (such as me) don't think North American downtowns are a good place to raise a family.
Quote:For Downtown residents, being close to work was the most important reason.
And this is certainly a direct argument against your claim. Although many factors beyond that go in to making the decision where to live...

And while I haven't seen cause and effect properly established, studies about density and happiness (usually life satisfaction) clearly shows people are less happy living in urban centers.

I think you kind of make the point, you don't want to live downtown, some but people do. I think it's very presumtive to assume people who live in different housing from one's self must be miserable. I certainly don't think that people living in the suburbs are miserable because they live in a suburb and that would make me miserable.

As for sizing, yes, I completely agree that there should be larger developments downtown, but for the reason you give, that people want bigger homes to house families, this was a struggle for me moving to DTK, but I did manage to find a condo to my liking--they do exist, even if they don't get built anymore.

Now as for happiness, that's an interesting point, but there are other factors, urban centres are not one group, for one, and the features of a particular urban centre may have an impact.  Measuring happiness is also not totally cut and dry. Also, conservatives (who live outside of cities more often) tend to measure higher on some happiness measures, in some places.  That alone could explain the difference between urban and suburban areas.


RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - plam - 05-29-2020

So we're currently living in 600sqft near downtown Wellington NZ (but up a non trivial slope, it's hilly here). I was just thinking about this yesterday.

We've lived in 250sqft in Berkeley and 1100 and 1500 sqft in Waterloo. Part of the thing is that this is temporary so we're more willing to put up with it, but the layout of the 600sqft in Wellington seems more usefully spacious than the 1100sqft in Waterloo. The 600sqft is set up as a bedroom + combined living space, whereas the 1100sqft was nominally 2br, but some of the spaces (like the living room) weren't very inviting.

We also felt like the 1100sqft had less useful storage space, although there is only a subset of my gear here.

I do feel like a lot of the downtown Toronto spaces are really quite small. Good layout helps to some extent, but it is still only 600sqft and challenging when kids are involved.

Suburban houses are sort of bigger especially these days but they're not really that big, I think, once the kids get bigger and would like to leave the house anyway.


RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - dtkvictim - 05-29-2020

(05-29-2020, 04:54 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: I think you kind of make the point, you don't want to live downtown, some but people do. I think it's very presumtive to assume people who live in different housing from one's self must be miserable. I certainly don't think that people living in the suburbs are miserable because they live in a suburb and that would make me miserable.

I must not have come across the way I meant to. For the record, I have lived in rural, suburban, and now urban housing. There have been pros and cons to each of these arrangements, and I'm not trying to come across as "rural good, urban bad". My point was about averages. I think on average people prefer to not live in urban centers (at least in the current North American state of urban centers), and I think more remote work will make the choice to live further out an easier one to make.

I'm not saying no one likes living downtown, or that there will be a mass exodus. Simply that it does have the potential to hurt urban growth because there are a lot of people here that would prefer to be elsewhere.

(05-29-2020, 04:54 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: Now as for happiness, that's an interesting point, but there are other factors, urban centres are not one group, for one, and the features of a particular urban centre may have an impact. Measuring happiness is also not totally cut and dry. Also, conservatives (who live outside of cities more often) tend to measure higher on some happiness measures, in some places. That alone could explain the difference between urban and suburban areas.

Yes, it's frustrating trying to find out good information about this topic. Happiness being subjective, and often conflated with other feelings, makes it even more difficult. Nonetheless, I think it's very important. And while density and happiness are generally negatively correlated, it's not clear that one causes the other. Do unhappy people move to cities because they think cities will have more opportunities for happiness? To your point on conservatives, perhaps they are conservative because they are happy with the way things are and see change as an unneeded risk, and perhaps their happiness comes from being in a rural area? I don't know.

I haven't seen many attempts to figure out cause and effect on this topic, but one suggestion that pops up most often is that lower density is more conducive to forming communities, and that community is almost something like a prerequisite for happiness.