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General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - Printable Version

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RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - tomh009 - 05-31-2020

(05-31-2020, 09:15 PM)dtkvictim Wrote:
(05-31-2020, 08:39 PM)tomh009 Wrote: Victoria Park bridges are indeed narrow for the most part (I occasionally need to wait for other people to cross) but the paths are not too bad if you're willing to step on the grass when meeting other people.

I'm not sure what it is, but Victoria Park seems to attract a greater number of people who don't care about cooperating. Victoria park area is the only place where people seem happy to stop in pathway intersections to have a conversation blocking people coming from all directions. Or just not making any effort to share the pathways with people coming from the opposite direction. Not that everyone at the park is doing this, but I've only experienced it at the park, so I just stick to residential neighbourhoods for my walks now.

I agree on that -- probably three out of four people/groups fail to move to the side to provide space, sometimes we end up making big detours on grass in the evening. (Early morning is OK due to the small number of people -- who also seem to be more cognizant of distancing.)

So, just like you, we rarely do evening walks in the park for now.


RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - danbrotherston - 05-31-2020

(05-31-2020, 09:15 PM)dtkvictim Wrote: ...
(05-31-2020, 10:24 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: But you really hit the nail on the head, the key is having common public spaces available.

The massive crowds in the parks are not a result of too much density or crowding, but of too little public space. If Toronto had instead opened half the roads downtown to the public for pedestrians (and closed them to cars), I doubt you would see the crowds that you do. This is a self inflicted situation.

That would certainly ease some of the pressure on parks, but streets are not green space. Streets can be used for exercise, but as far as I'm concerned, green space is just as important as exercise for mental well being.

This is fair, and it's not a replacement. (Nor are city parks a replacement for less....manicured natural areas, which are in even more tight supply in our region).

But plenty of people (not everyone) are probably like myself, I enjoy the park, but I also enjoy a pleasant walk through a neigbourhood. Unfortunately, in many places in Toronto streets are barely safe, let alone pleasant, due to traffic. I'm sure that some people who end up in parks, would be happy to spread out on streets.

While I'm all in favour of creating more parks, opening streets to people is something Toronto could do in about 10 minutes, rather than the 10 years it would take to build a new park.


RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - tomh009 - 05-31-2020

(05-31-2020, 09:28 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:
(05-31-2020, 08:39 PM)tomh009 Wrote: Rockway is a 20-minute walk (for people who are reasonably fit) from DTK.

Google shows Rockway to be a 30 minute walk from Queen where I live, and that's right in the middle.  And Google maps directions generally for a pretty fast walker.  I don't really want to walk 30 minutes to the golf course, just to turn around and hoof it home...walking longer than an hour is probably not typical for most people. I suspect from DTK, most people would drive to rockway (or bus or bike) and not walk.

Google shows about 25 minutes to the (Kitchener) W edge on Sydney St. Admittedly I walk a bit faster. And longer. Smile

And, yes, walks for families with little kids are more challenging.


RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - danbrotherston - 05-31-2020

(05-31-2020, 09:33 PM)tomh009 Wrote:
(05-31-2020, 09:28 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: Google shows Rockway to be a 30 minute walk from Queen where I live, and that's right in the middle.  And Google maps directions generally for a pretty fast walker.  I don't really want to walk 30 minutes to the golf course, just to turn around and hoof it home...walking longer than an hour is probably not typical for most people. I suspect from DTK, most people would drive to rockway (or bus or bike) and not walk.

Google shows about 25 minutes to the (Kitchener) W edge on Sydney St. Admittedly I walk a bit faster. And longer. Smile

And, yes, walks for families with little kids are more challenging.

I used to walk faster before I had a baby...I used to walk 5k to and from work most days. But, no longer. I think 10-15 minutes is typical distance for people to walk, although probably less when the destination is itself, a walk.

Still, in non-covid times, we would just take the LRT.


RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - dtkvictim - 05-31-2020

(05-31-2020, 09:33 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: While I'm all in favour of creating more parks, opening streets to people is something Toronto could do in about 10 minutes, rather than the 10 years it would take to build a new park.

Absolutely, I don't want to argue against that, pandemic or not.

(05-29-2020, 08:41 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: As for urban growth, I think you're wrong, there are many cultural reasons for the mass exodus that happened from cities in late part of the last century. There are also substantial government policy reasons (building the highways, absolutely enormous subsidization of the suburbs), but at the end of the day humans have been moving to cities for literally thousands of years. Urban communities may not be for everyone, but they have been so aggressively attacked by different policies that they are in enormous deficit of supply. That's why prices are so high in downtowns. That's why at Christmas we put up scenes of quaint little main streets, the kinds of which are illegal to build almost everywhere today. This is in demand. And just to be clear, urban doesn't mean a big city downtown--at least to me--urban means not sprawling. There are many small towns in the Netherlands which are more urban than DTK.

Sorry, I missed this reply so I'm a bit late replying to it...

What sort of cultural reasons are you thinking of? As far as I was aware, a huge part of this was the mass adoption of the car. Subsidizing this was, no doubt, a bad idea, but I think it is pretty good proof that given the option, people are quick to leave. People have been moving to cities for thousands of years, but you'd have a really hard time convincing me that it's for any reason other than being desperate for work. Cities have been disgusting places up until very recently.

(05-29-2020, 08:41 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: As for communities, humans just form communities, its what we do, lower density areas mean there are fewer opportunities to create communities, so the ones that exist are more defined by geography. In dense cities communities form between many different groups. Certainly if I lived in a rural area I would not have a community of people involved in cycling and transit, nor in technology, nor in my condo building, nor in the shops around my neighbourhood.

I hadn't really considered the more niche communities, which is a fair point, but my concern I guess was more with neighbourhood communities. I live about as downtown as is possible, and frankly I don't even feel like I have a neighbourhood. In fact, in many ways it's worse than not having a neighbourhood (a sort of neutral state); my downtown experiences have been mostly outright negative or hostile.

You mentioned Dutch cities, and I certainly agree there. It seems to me they have many areas that are a much better balance of density and community. Though I don't know how those living in the cores of their largest urban centers feel, at the very least the urban design there is much better for community (open streets being the biggest one). Societal problems are the other half of the problem, but I haven't been to the Netherlands so I can't really speak on how they are doing there...


RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - jgsz - 06-01-2020

(05-31-2020, 02:32 PM)ijmorlan Wrote: They don’t have to be. City-owned golf courses are for the benefit of the citizens of the City; if a greater benefit can be had by opening them for walking than by opening them for golfing, then they should be for walking.

Full disclosure:  I have never played golf and have no intention of ever playing that game.  As Mark Twain once said, "golf is a good walk spoiled."

I would go much further than ijmorlan and say that all golf courses within the city should become public parks.  When Rockway (public) and Westmount (private) golf courses were established, they were on the edge of the city.  And that is where they belong today.  It just makes sense.  Once a golf course is surrounded by the city they should be turned into parks for all to use.  Can you imagine how awful KW would look like if Victoria Park and Waterloo Park were golf courses?  

I doubt if turning golf courses into parks is on anyone's agenda but perhaps it is something we can think about.


RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - panamaniac - 06-01-2020

(06-01-2020, 08:03 AM)jgsz Wrote:
(05-31-2020, 02:32 PM)ijmorlan Wrote: They don’t have to be. City-owned golf courses are for the benefit of the citizens of the City; if a greater benefit can be had by opening them for walking than by opening them for golfing, then they should be for walking.

Full disclosure:  I have never played golf and have no intention of ever playing that game.  As Mark Twain once said, "golf is a good walk spoiled."

I would go much further than ijmorlan and say that all golf courses within the city should become public parks.  When Rockway (public) and Westmount (private) golf courses were established, they were on the edge of the city.  And that is where they belong today.  It just makes sense.  Once a golf course is surrounded by the city they should be turned into parks for all to use.  Can you imagine how awful KW would look like if Victoria Park and Waterloo Park were golf courses?  

I doubt if turning golf courses into parks is on anyone's agenda but perhaps it is something we can think about.  

There has been thought from time to time at the City level about what the future might hold for Rockway.  The risk, of course, is that the land would be looked at just for its monetary value and be sold off to developers.  That would be a tragedy.  The main issue in the area at the moment, aside from whatever redevelopment is to take place at the seniors' centre, is the condition of the rockery in Rockway Gardens - I understand that it has been shifting for years and needs to be repaired/rebuilt but this is something the Horticultural Society could never afford and I don't know if it's even on the City's radar.  The Rockway Gardens will be 100 years old in 2033, so maybe somebody can tackle it as a centennial project ....


RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - robdrimmie - 06-01-2020

(05-31-2020, 11:14 PM)dtkvictim Wrote: People have been moving to cities for thousands of years, but you'd have a really hard time convincing me that it's for any reason other than being desperate for work. Cities have been disgusting places up until very recently.

I hope you recognize that you're using your lived experience as a barometer for your position on civic policy.

There's many reasons to move to dense urban centres. Certainly one of the most important is work, but growing up here in KW the allure of Toronto wasn't jobs, it was people. Late night activities. For some it's the potential to leave the family they are born into for one they choose. In my 30s (2007-2017) many friends from high school moved back and all the single ones left again within a couple of years because the lifestyle they wanted was unavailable. There's many and varied positive aspects of living in urban centres and while I certainly don't find all of them appealing, there are many people who do.

Work is a huge factor, absolutely, but if you think everyone who lives in major urban centres is doing so resentfully, I think you're being too broad applying your experiences and motivators onto other people.

In addition, there's moderate evidence that suggests urban life is better for many of us: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/oct/06/inner-city-living-makes-for-healthier-happier-people-study-finds


RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - danbrotherston - 06-01-2020

(06-01-2020, 08:03 AM)jgsz Wrote:
(05-31-2020, 02:32 PM)ijmorlan Wrote: They don’t have to be. City-owned golf courses are for the benefit of the citizens of the City; if a greater benefit can be had by opening them for walking than by opening them for golfing, then they should be for walking.

Full disclosure:  I have never played golf and have no intention of ever playing that game.  As Mark Twain once said, "golf is a good walk spoiled."

I would go much further than ijmorlan and say that all golf courses within the city should become public parks.  When Rockway (public) and Westmount (private) golf courses were established, they were on the edge of the city.  And that is where they belong today.  It just makes sense.  Once a golf course is surrounded by the city they should be turned into parks for all to use.  Can you imagine how awful KW would look like if Victoria Park and Waterloo Park were golf courses?  

I doubt if turning golf courses into parks is on anyone's agenda but perhaps it is something we can think about.

I'm not sure there is any way the city could force this. Private property is private, the city can try to buy it, but it isn't going to be cheap, and spending that much money wouldn't necessarily be good either. AFAIK there is no way for the city to force a golf course to stop operating.


RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - urbd - 06-01-2020

(06-01-2020, 08:03 AM)jgsz Wrote:
(05-31-2020, 02:32 PM)ijmorlan Wrote: They don’t have to be. City-owned golf courses are for the benefit of the citizens of the City; if a greater benefit can be had by opening them for walking than by opening them for golfing, then they should be for walking.

Full disclosure:  I have never played golf and have no intention of ever playing that game.  As Mark Twain once said, "golf is a good walk spoiled."

I would go much further than ijmorlan and say that all golf courses within the city should become public parks.  When Rockway (public) and Westmount (private) golf courses were established, they were on the edge of the city.  And that is where they belong today.  It just makes sense.  Once a golf course is surrounded by the city they should be turned into parks for all to use.  Can you imagine how awful KW would look like if Victoria Park and Waterloo Park were golf courses?  

I doubt if turning golf courses into parks is on anyone's agenda but perhaps it is something we can think about.

Oh turning golf courses into parks/development land is definitely on many local stakeholders' agendas, public and private.


RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - dtkvictim - 06-01-2020

(06-01-2020, 09:04 AM)robdrimmie Wrote:
(05-31-2020, 11:14 PM)dtkvictim Wrote: People have been moving to cities for thousands of years, but you'd have a really hard time convincing me that it's for any reason other than being desperate for work. Cities have been disgusting places up until very recently.

I hope you recognize that you're using your lived experience as a barometer for your position on civic policy.

There's many reasons to move to dense urban centres. Certainly one of the most important is work, but growing up here in KW the allure of Toronto wasn't jobs, it was people. Late night activities. For some it's the potential to leave the family they are born into for one they choose. In my 30s (2007-2017) many friends from high school moved back and all the single ones left again within a couple of years because the lifestyle they wanted was unavailable. There's many and varied positive aspects of living in urban centres and while I certainly don't find all of them appealing, there are many people who do.

Work is a huge factor, absolutely, but if you think everyone who lives in major urban centres is doing so resentfully, I think you're being too broad applying your experiences and motivators onto other people.

In addition, there's moderate evidence that suggests urban life is better for many of us: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/oct/06/inner-city-living-makes-for-healthier-happier-people-study-finds
No, I don't think I'm doing that, I'm just using poor language choices to express myself. I didn't mean to speak in absolute terms, saying that literally the only reason to be in a city is for work. I suspect for the vast majority of people there isn't one single factor that decides where they choose to live, but a combination of many factors. But as you mentioned, work is usually the biggest or one of the biggest factors. And just to be clear, my comment you quoted was specifically about cities in a historical context, not about modern cities.

I'm personally actually fairly reluctant to leave downtown. I don't drive, and I don't really want to have to drive. Living in an urban environment is generally better for the environment. I've formed my opinion by interacting with other people who, in my experience, really don't care about these things and don't weigh them as very heavy pros when deciding where to live.

As for your link, I'm well aware that density encourages active transportation and lower obesity (again, this is a big part of why I am downtown). But the article's claim that urban people are happier is 1) contrary to every study I've seen so far, and 2) not at all supported by the study linked in the article. In fact, the word "happy" (or its derivatives) isn't mentioned a single time in the study.


RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - jeffster - 06-01-2020

(05-31-2020, 11:14 PM)dtkvictim Wrote: What sort of cultural reasons are you thinking of? As far as I was aware, a huge part of this was the mass adoption of the car. Subsidizing this was, no doubt, a bad idea, but I think it is pretty good proof that given the option, people are quick to leave. People have been moving to cities for thousands of years, but you'd have a really hard time convincing me that it's for any reason other than being desperate for work. Cities have been disgusting places up until very recently.

I could be wrong, but I think it is in reference to 'white flight'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_flight

A couple factors in this, without bringing up cultural stuff, is people that were more well off being able to buy quality cars and get to work quickly, wanted nice homes with large® properties, and no longer have to live in the city cores, or close to them, and people that were less well off, finding some financial relief living in the city cores (or close to them), because of cheap public transit.

There seems to be only once occurrence in Canada, but it's hard to call it 'white flight' as it involved Brampton, which is basically a bedroom community of Toronto, and doesn't have much of a core.

But 'white flight' is very common in major American cities. Detroit is an excellent example. Was it cars? Was it cultural? Or was it both?


RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - tomh009 - 06-01-2020

(06-01-2020, 09:42 AM)danbrotherston Wrote:
(06-01-2020, 08:03 AM)jgsz Wrote: Full disclosure:  I have never played golf and have no intention of ever playing that game.  As Mark Twain once said, "golf is a good walk spoiled."

I would go much further than ijmorlan and say that all golf courses within the city should become public parks.  When Rockway (public) and Westmount (private) golf courses were established, they were on the edge of the city.  And that is where they belong today.  It just makes sense.  Once a golf course is surrounded by the city they should be turned into parks for all to use.  Can you imagine how awful KW would look like if Victoria Park and Waterloo Park were golf courses?  

I doubt if turning golf courses into parks is on anyone's agenda but perhaps it is something we can think about.

I'm not sure there is any way the city could force this. Private property is private, the city can try to buy it, but it isn't going to be cheap, and spending that much money wouldn't necessarily be good either. AFAIK there is no way for the city to force a golf course to stop operating.

I do agree with that. But I believe that membership numbers at Westmount are trending down relatively quickly as younger people are less likely to play golf -- and if they, they'll want to play at a more modern course. So there may yet be an opportunity for the cities or the region to buy the land in the next few decades. The value of the land for single-family housing would be very high, but the current zoning won't allow that, so the transaction price would surely be more modest. If it happens, that is.


RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - danbrotherston - 06-01-2020

(06-01-2020, 09:59 PM)tomh009 Wrote:
(06-01-2020, 09:42 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: I'm not sure there is any way the city could force this. Private property is private, the city can try to buy it, but it isn't going to be cheap, and spending that much money wouldn't necessarily be good either. AFAIK there is no way for the city to force a golf course to stop operating.

I do agree with that. But I believe that membership numbers at Westmount are trending down relatively quickly as younger people are less likely to play golf -- and if they, they'll want to play at a more modern course. So there may yet be an opportunity for the cities or the region to buy the land in the next few decades. The value of the land for single-family housing would be very high, but the current zoning won't allow that, so the transaction price would surely be more modest. If it happens, that is.

Heh...I wonder what the rules are for the city acquiring land, then rezoning it, then selling it at a higher value...surely that must be illegal, not that I'd personally object.


RE: General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours - jeffster - 06-01-2020

(06-01-2020, 10:10 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:
(06-01-2020, 09:59 PM)tomh009 Wrote: I do agree with that. But I believe that membership numbers at Westmount are trending down relatively quickly as younger people are less likely to play golf -- and if they, they'll want to play at a more modern course. So there may yet be an opportunity for the cities or the region to buy the land in the next few decades. The value of the land for single-family housing would be very high, but the current zoning won't allow that, so the transaction price would surely be more modest. If it happens, that is.

Heh...I wonder what the rules are for the city acquiring land, then rezoning it, then selling it at a higher value...surely that must be illegal, not that I'd personally object.

I think they could rezone with some residential, some at high density on Glasgow side, and parks, all on the Kitchener side. Waterloo side would be a few dozen large homes, nothing else, maybe a gated community. Would be a benefit to both cities, though more so for Kitchener, you could have a large walking trail and picnic benches and BBQ's through out.