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Ending Chronic Homelessness
#91
(02-24-2023, 12:48 PM)Acitta Wrote:
(02-24-2023, 01:50 AM)jeffster Wrote: As for the problem of chronic homelessness -- in many cases, you can't help some of these people. The best we can do is build 'affordable' housing (generally apartments or townhouses) but many of those folks wouldn't make it in such accommodations. Many have addiction and mental health issues that just wouldn't work in settings where there are other people around.

They have kicked people out of 'A Better Tent City' which had minimal rules. If you can't make it there, you won't make it anywhere and you will be homeless for life.

While there have always been a certain number of people who are chronically homeless and cannot handle living in normal society, the scale of homelessness these days is unprecedented across the country. There is a severe lack of affordable housing for people with low income. The amount of money for housing supplied by ODSP and Ontario Works is laughable. Once upon a time, someone could afford to get by on welfare. There used to be enough cheap rooms to rent. Even many of those with substance abuse problems could afford to have a roof over their head. This is a problem that has arisen because of decades of neglect by provincial governments. We cannot simply pretend that we can kick people out of encampments and they will simply disappear. Many countries in the global south have vast tracks of shantytowns built by people who have no other choice. This is our future if our governments don't take this seriously. Doug Ford allowing developers to build monster homes on the greenbelt is not going to solve the problem.

You're pretty much spot on about everything.

That said, how do we fix the housing issue? I think I had mentioned in a Reddit thread regarding an apartment being built in Waterloo for affordable housing. I calculated that the per unit cost was about $450,000. This confused me. Why are we paying so much for these builds? Where is the money being funnelled too? If we needed 30,000 affordability united in the region, the cost would be $14 billion. To house the homeless (chronic and/or living in rough) would likewise cost $500 million - just in this region.

We need to get to the bottom of why things are as expensive as they are though. Not even that long ago you could get a new small condo for less than $300G that would have had good interior design. A basic apartment unit should be a lot cheaper.

I know part of the issue is previous governments discouraged students from the trades, which is now bitting us in the ass. But apart from that, there is something bad going on - between politicians of all government levels, perhaps money laundering among other things. But we really need to see a full accounting and money trail. Who's profiting so much off of these builds?

Also, for clarification - those who have serious drug problems -- I don't recall a time where they have had a roof over their heads, unless they were in some sort of institution. I am not sure how old you are, but I recall this being an issue, and seeing it, when I went to Cameron Heights in the 1980's. Some folks would live under the Stirling Street overpass between Mill and Courtland.
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#92
(02-25-2023, 02:48 PM)jeffster Wrote:
(02-24-2023, 12:48 PM)Acitta Wrote: While there have always been a certain number of people who are chronically homeless and cannot handle living in normal society, the scale of homelessness these days is unprecedented across the country. There is a severe lack of affordable housing for people with low income. The amount of money for housing supplied by ODSP and Ontario Works is laughable. Once upon a time, someone could afford to get by on welfare. There used to be enough cheap rooms to rent. Even many of those with substance abuse problems could afford to have a roof over their head. This is a problem that has arisen because of decades of neglect by provincial governments. We cannot simply pretend that we can kick people out of encampments and they will simply disappear. Many countries in the global south have vast tracks of shantytowns built by people who have no other choice. This is our future if our governments don't take this seriously. Doug Ford allowing developers to build monster homes on the greenbelt is not going to solve the problem.

You're pretty much spot on about everything.

That said, how do we fix the housing issue? I think I had mentioned in a Reddit thread regarding an apartment being built in Waterloo for affordable housing. I calculated that the per unit cost was about $450,000. This confused me. Why are we paying so much for these builds? Where is the money being funnelled too? If we needed 30,000 affordability united in the region, the cost would be $14 billion. To house the homeless (chronic and/or living in rough) would likewise cost $500 million - just in this region.

We need to get to the bottom of why things are as expensive as they are though. Not even that long ago you could get a new small condo for less than $300G that would have had good interior design. A basic apartment unit should be a lot cheaper.

I know part of the issue is previous governments discouraged students from the trades, which is now bitting us in the ass. But apart from that, there is something bad going on - between politicians of all government levels, perhaps money laundering among other things. But we really need to see a full accounting and money trail. Who's profiting so much off of these builds?

Also, for clarification - those who have serious drug problems -- I don't recall a time where they have had a roof over their heads, unless they were in some sort of institution. I am not sure how old you are, but I recall this being an issue, and seeing it, when I went to Cameron Heights in the 1980's.  Some folks would live under the Stirling Street overpass between Mill and Courtland.

I am 69. Back in the '70s it was more possible to find a cheap room somewhere if you were together enough to work at some crappy minimum wage Joe job (There were more of those back then, too.) Like I said, there have always been those too addicted or mentally ill to manage stable housing, and the opioid crisis has certainly exacerbated that. However, back then welfare or unemployment insurance was enough to have a place to live, even if it was not a very good place. Now, even if you have a full time minimum wage job, you are hard-pressed to find a place to live and if you are disabled, ODSP is laughable. Before I turned 65, I only kept myself from becoming homeless because I had a lot of credit and was able to go heavily in debt.
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#93
(02-25-2023, 03:58 PM)Acitta Wrote:
(02-25-2023, 02:48 PM)jeffster Wrote: You're pretty much spot on about everything.

That said, how do we fix the housing issue? I think I had mentioned in a Reddit thread regarding an apartment being built in Waterloo for affordable housing. I calculated that the per unit cost was about $450,000. This confused me. Why are we paying so much for these builds? Where is the money being funnelled too? If we needed 30,000 affordability united in the region, the cost would be $14 billion. To house the homeless (chronic and/or living in rough) would likewise cost $500 million - just in this region.

We need to get to the bottom of why things are as expensive as they are though. Not even that long ago you could get a new small condo for less than $300G that would have had good interior design. A basic apartment unit should be a lot cheaper.

I know part of the issue is previous governments discouraged students from the trades, which is now bitting us in the ass. But apart from that, there is something bad going on - between politicians of all government levels, perhaps money laundering among other things. But we really need to see a full accounting and money trail. Who's profiting so much off of these builds?

Also, for clarification - those who have serious drug problems -- I don't recall a time where they have had a roof over their heads, unless they were in some sort of institution. I am not sure how old you are, but I recall this being an issue, and seeing it, when I went to Cameron Heights in the 1980's.  Some folks would live under the Stirling Street overpass between Mill and Courtland.

I am 69. Back in the '70s it was more possible to find a cheap room somewhere if you were together enough to work at some crappy minimum wage Joe job (There were more of those back then, too.) Like I said, there have always been those too addicted or mentally ill to manage stable housing, and the opioid crisis has certainly exacerbated that. However, back then welfare or unemployment insurance was enough to have a place to live, even if it was not a very good place. Now, even if you have a full time minimum wage job, you are hard-pressed to find a place to live and if you are disabled, ODSP is laughable. Before I turned 65, I only kept myself from becoming homeless because I had a lot of credit and was able to go heavily in debt.

Things have certainly changed from when you were younger. It's a lot tougher for anyone these days, addicted or not, mentally ill or fit, to make ends meet and have suitable housing.

My two main questions are, and maybe someone can point out some answers (and potential solutions).

As I mentioned in the post you responded to. Why are units cost close to 1/2 million? There is no way this is the true cost, and money is going somewhere. That somewhere is where it shouldn't be going....

What is a real solution for those that are too unstable for normal housing? While I heard from one homeless person that they enjoy living in the rough, because of the freedom it gives them.
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#94
(02-27-2023, 02:26 PM)jeffster Wrote:
(02-25-2023, 03:58 PM)Acitta Wrote: I am 69. Back in the '70s it was more possible to find a cheap room somewhere if you were together enough to work at some crappy minimum wage Joe job (There were more of those back then, too.) Like I said, there have always been those too addicted or mentally ill to manage stable housing, and the opioid crisis has certainly exacerbated that. However, back then welfare or unemployment insurance was enough to have a place to live, even if it was not a very good place. Now, even if you have a full time minimum wage job, you are hard-pressed to find a place to live and if you are disabled, ODSP is laughable. Before I turned 65, I only kept myself from becoming homeless because I had a lot of credit and was able to go heavily in debt.

Things have certainly changed from when you were younger. It's a lot tougher for anyone these days, addicted or not, mentally ill or fit, to make ends meet and have suitable housing.

My two main questions are, and maybe someone can point out some answers (and potential solutions).

As I mentioned in the post you responded to. Why are units cost close to 1/2 million? There is no way this is the true cost, and money is going somewhere. That somewhere is where it shouldn't be going....

What is a real solution for those that are too unstable for normal housing? While I heard from one homeless person that they enjoy living in the rough, because of the freedom it gives them.

"Because of the freedom it gives them..."

So...what freedom do they feel? Do they believe they are more free than you living in your home? Or do they feel less free in other forms of housing because of restrictions and limitations *WE* place on those forms of housing? Do they feel less free because those restrictions are placed ON them by others, rather than something they have agency over?

It's possible that someone does feel more free living rough, than living in a house, but I think that's probably more common in mild climates rather than ones where people routinely freeze to death if unhoused.

I don't actually know mind you...I have my suspicions...but I'm open to being wrong.

I do think however that it's an irrelevant problem...a solution which only solves 90% of homelessness is obviously a solution worth pursuing...and at this point, that's a low estimate.
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#95
(02-27-2023, 02:26 PM)jeffster Wrote: As I mentioned in the post you responded to. Why are units cost close to 1/2 million? There is no way this is the true cost, and money is going somewhere. That somewhere is where it shouldn't be going....

A big chunk of that is the cost of the land. Suppose you are paying $5M an acre outside the core: with an FSR of 2.0 that's about $60/sqft for just the land purchase, probably more like $100/sqft once you account for the common area in an apartment building. And a surface parking space will cost probably $20K. Then you have planning, cleanup, permitting, excavation and construction, none of which are cheap.

Still, I am skeptical of the $500K cost. What exactly is that for?
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#96
Consultants*
Pointless Environmental Reviews
Lawyers
Holding costs from the process taking 3+ years
Wasteful, expensive parking increasing the per-unit costs
Extremely expensive land due to shitty zoning causing massive demand
Real construction/labour inflation from an industry that has become less efficient over time, unlike literally all other manufacturing

*Only necessary because municipalities have given up their own skills on this front and outsourced everything to consultants
local cambridge weirdo
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#97
Didn’t the public washrooms in Victoria park cost $400,000 or some such absurd number?

Keep in mind that, compared to a normal house, the washrooms have no kitchen, no bedrooms, no stairs, no garage, no appliances. They do need to be built to be sturdy like commercial buildings, but in every other way they are simpler; furthermore, one way to build sturdy is to do things like build a wall out of concrete blocks, not necessarily expensive techniques.

The point being, there is something wrong with our construction costs.
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#98
Is it possible to mandate that developers make less profit? Can we force companies to build things at a loss?
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#99
(02-28-2023, 10:05 AM)Joedelay Highhoe Wrote: Is it possible to mandate that developers make less profit? Can we force companies to build things at a loss?

No...

Like...definitionally.

If they can make more profit elsewhere, they'll just do that...

It isn't even a matter of working at a loss, it's literally the case that capitalists won't do things that earn less than something else.
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(02-28-2023, 10:05 AM)Joedelay Highhoe Wrote: Is it possible to mandate that developers make less profit? Can we force companies to build things at a loss?

Then they’ll go somewhere else that has better profits and we can become the little rust belt that our councillors always wanted!

Profit isn’t bad, it’s how we decide which things get done in our daily lives…
local cambridge weirdo
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(02-28-2023, 11:30 AM)bravado Wrote:
(02-28-2023, 10:05 AM)Joedelay Highhoe Wrote: Is it possible to mandate that developers make less profit? Can we force companies to build things at a loss?

Then they’ll go somewhere else that has better profits and we can become the little rust belt that our councillors always wanted!

Profit isn’t bad, it’s how we decide which things get done in our daily lives…

Exactly. Capitalism is in reality the most amazing concept in the history of economics. Instead of rulers deciding what happens, people decide what to do with whatever wealth they have.

The problem comes when it is inappropriately regulated, either too much or too little (or both at once, in different ways). Then you get many problems with negative externalities, anticompetitive behaviour, lock-in, monopolies, some people being able to do anything while others have essentially no choices, and so on. There are also areas where it’s better for all of society to get together and do things together.
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Litt disgusts me. All the meetings I have sat in with him and Craig (City Planner), I just want to vomit.
He has brought nothing but Chaos to this area with his $200k donation to the emergency homeless shelter that he has provided at the Schwaben location.  Needles, garbage, homeless people in the boulevard who have made it their place to drink their alcohol, sleep and smoke their crack.  And it's up to the residents to call bylaw or the police to get them removed, 'because the Security that The Working Center has hired has their security zoom down the area faster than the speed limit when doing their "daily checks" for residents of the Schwaben Club.  It's pathetic.   Not to mention the countless breakins and the elderly being scared to walk or even live in their residence because of their encounters in the private residence.  The Region & The Working Center does nothing but avoid the questions we ask , and divert the answer to how well the staff at the Emergency Shelter are doing.  They address non of our concerns nor come forth with solutions.  They have promised a Town Hall to discuss this, months ago, and no action.  Absolutely disgusted with everything going on in the City, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
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The issues that you raise are problems our society has, they were not caused by one individual, by one charitable organization or by one city. The city and the region are working on addressing the homelessness issues, but there are no silver bullets for this. A particular person might prefer leaving people at distant encampments rather than providing them with shelter that is closer to his or her home, but that isn't really a solution, either.
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(05-14-2023, 10:33 AM)Citizen1234 Wrote: Litt disgusts me. All the meetings I have sat in with him and Craig (City Planner), I just want to vomit.
He has brought nothing but Chaos to this area with his $200k donation to the emergency homeless shelter that he has provided at the Schwaben location.  Needles, garbage, homeless people in the boulevard who have made it their place to drink their alcohol, sleep and smoke their crack.  And it's up to the residents to call bylaw or the police to get them removed, 'because the Security that The Working Center has hired has their security zoom down the area faster than the speed limit when doing their "daily checks" for residents of the Schwaben Club.  It's pathetic.   Not to mention the countless breakins and the elderly being scared to walk or even live in their residence because of their encounters in the private residence.  The Region & The Working Center does nothing but avoid the questions we ask , and divert the answer to how well the staff at the Emergency Shelter are doing.  They address non of our concerns nor come forth with solutions.  They have promised a Town Hall to discuss this, months ago, and no action.  Absolutely disgusted with everything going on in the City, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Would you rather those people who are experiencing homelessness to be wandering the streets looking for some place to stay warm, potentially starting fires in abandoned buildings which could cause even more harm? Freezing to death on the sidewalk? Litt is providing these people who are just as much of a member of society as you and I a place to live, a place they can call home temporarily, my job allows me to have frequent encounters with those who are homeless and yes you have those who are eccentric, but you also have the ones who just got dealt a bad hand in life that put them into homelessness and are just trying to get their lives back together. You are blatantly stereotyping all of those who are using the emergency shelter system as those who are eccentric while many are not which shows the privilege you have since you can refer to them as "Chaos". Obviously the people living there will not be there forever as it will be developed in the coming years by Litt but in the meantime it is something that just has to be dealt with.
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(05-14-2023, 10:56 PM)ZEBuilder Wrote:
(05-14-2023, 10:33 AM)Citizen1234 Wrote: Litt disgusts me. All the meetings I have sat in with him and Craig (City Planner), I just want to vomit.
He has brought nothing but Chaos to this area with his $200k donation to the emergency homeless shelter that he has provided at the Schwaben location.  Needles, garbage, homeless people in the boulevard who have made it their place to drink their alcohol, sleep and smoke their crack.  And it's up to the residents to call bylaw or the police to get them removed, 'because the Security that The Working Center has hired has their security zoom down the area faster than the speed limit when doing their "daily checks" for residents of the Schwaben Club.  It's pathetic.   Not to mention the countless breakins and the elderly being scared to walk or even live in their residence because of their encounters in the private residence.  The Region & The Working Center does nothing but avoid the questions we ask , and divert the answer to how well the staff at the Emergency Shelter are doing.  They address non of our concerns nor come forth with solutions.  They have promised a Town Hall to discuss this, months ago, and no action.  Absolutely disgusted with everything going on in the City, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Would you rather those people who are experiencing homelessness to be wandering the streets looking for some place to stay warm, potentially starting fires in abandoned buildings which could cause even more harm? Freezing to death on the sidewalk? Litt is providing these people who are just as much of a member of society as you and I a place to live, a place they can call home temporarily, my job allows me to have frequent encounters with those who are homeless and yes you have those who are eccentric, but you also have the ones who just got dealt a bad hand in life that put them into homelessness and are just trying to get their lives back together. You are blatantly stereotyping all of those who are using the emergency shelter system as those who are eccentric while many are not which shows the privilege you have since you can refer to them as "Chaos". Obviously the people living there will not be there forever as it will be developed in the coming years by Litt but in the meantime it is something that just has to be dealt with.

I wouldn't say Litt disgusts me, because he is presumably acting with good intentions. But I wouldn't wish my downtown experiences on any other neighbourhood in the city, and so it's easy for me to see why someone would draw a line to those who are making that happen. I think a lot of shouting past each other happens here, because so many type of people get blanketed under homeless. While I'm sure there are some people who do, the vast majority of people have no problem with homeless people in and of themselves. People have a problem with violent people, criminals, extremely mentally ill people, and people with severe drug addictions. Many on this forum don't seem to understand how quickly you lose any compassion for those who have no compassion, respect, or care in the world for you. Many on this forum don't seem to understand the lasting psychological toll they take on you. Chaos is an apt word.

It's fair to suggest that wanting them to just "go away" isn't a valid solution, but suggesting to people who no longer feel safe in their neighbourhood or even homes that they should just put up with it is what lacks compassion to me.

An often missing point of view that I think gets lost in the crossfire, is that the vast majority of homeless people who do not fall into this category are forced into close proximity and sharing resources with these "bad" people. They are suffering from far greater safety concerns and far more extreme psychological stress than the general public, just so we can say we are "compassionate".
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