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Winter Walking and Cycling
(02-10-2020, 02:04 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: Yes, that refers to the fact that they did not hire the hundreds of bylaw officers it would require to patrol every sidewalk after every storm.

Are you suggesting this immense investment in enforcement is your solution?

Because that doesn't refer to the fact that the program wasn't covering the whole city, and if that's what you're suggesting, I'll be generous and say you're being dishonest.


I'll be generous too... the exact words that you called me out on were: "a small area of the city" whereas the staff report quite literally said "a small fraction of the city" ...I'm quite content to let the readers determine who is being honest.
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(02-10-2020, 02:09 AM)danbrotherston Wrote:
(02-10-2020, 01:49 AM)jeffster Wrote: 1) Yes -- I have spoken to just about everyone at the KOF (Kitchener Operations Facility) regarding snow operations. Very limited time on these small machines because they are very, very loud, and cause hearing damage, and they're very, very rough driving them. Many have had to step back from driving these machines because of what they do to the body. Not a single individual said that they were comparable to a snowplow. Not one. I am still trying to figure, by your definition, how a snowplow is more dangerous. You have data to back this up, obviously?

2) That's an ignorant analogy, and you should know better. Not even remotely the same. Like operating a snowblower requires any sort of education -- it does not. This is why you can buy one from Canadian Tire even if you're 11 years old. Operating a water supply? Good grief, do you understand the education one needs for this line of work? Based of your answer, definitely you have zero clue.

And, by the way: what should volunteers be counted on doing? Nothing? People DO volunteer, for many different reasons. I volunteer. Many of my friends do to. You obviously don't like that sort of set-up, which is fine, you don't have to help for free any cause. But everyone benefits from volunteers. And without those types of folks, the city wouldn't be the same. At that applies equally to Kitchener as it does to Toronto, London UK, New York City. Everywhere. Sometimes it is about being a good neighbour.  Sometimes it is about learning to do good.

Quick answer! You didn't answer the simple question. Where's the data?

1) I was very clear, snowplows drive fast and are occasionally involved in fatal collisions, I know of no such case where a sidewalk plow involved in plowing operations was involved in a fatal collision.

Now maybe you've raised other concerns, but I'll point out for seemingly the trillionth time, other cities manage to do this, we aren't some special incompetent flower, where we are the only city which can't plow our sidewalks.

2) So then why don't we have volunteers clear the roads, and let the professionals handle the sidewalks?  Or do the grass cutting in summer.  Why is it that the ONLY public service you bellieve should be handled by free child labor is sidewalk clearing?

Your accusation that I don't volunteer is ignorant, I don't have to answer to you, but making assumptions makes an ass out of you.

No, I didn't fall for your bullshit "trap" argument, I called it out...like all false arguments should be, you want to try a third time?

1) You're 100% ignorant on this topic. So now the snowplough are a danger "to the public" as obviously any sort of fatality wouldn't involve the truck driver (who's max speed will be around 40 kph).

Seemingly trillionth -- I have no idea what you're talking about. Do you know what a trillion is?

What cities have 'managed' to do this fine and with happy customers? Guelph? Ottawa? Some part of Toronto? Ask the man on his mobility device in an suburban centre how his trip went after the storm. I have. Not good. Not happy. "But, they can only do so much...but they should though concentrate on areas where disabled people live..."

And the city DOES plow sidewalks -- just not the entire city. How the hell else would I know that operators have suffered driving this contraptions? Bolded the above for context to my answer.

2) Again, this shows your ignorance in snow removal operations: Meditate on this: teens don't have their full license. Teens can't work 12 hour days and go to school. Teens don't have DZ training and license (D for truck over 24,000 pounds, Z is Air Brake endorsement). Teens can't be 'on-call' for snow removal. Does the city want to spend millions training hundreds of people to get their DZ license to have them only available for a few hours -- maybe? Really, that's your solution?

Second, where did I say that the only public service I "bellieve" should be done by child labour? Child labour, as mandated by the previous Liberal government, never specified what children can and couldn't do, as long as it was safe. Personally, I don't give a rats ass what these kids do. They wanna work at a community centre? Sure. Old age home? Sure. I don't care of the what and where. I was making a suggestion which clearly offended you, for whatever reason. When I was a kid, I shovelled, for free, my elderly neighbours sidewalk. I guess I was a victim of child labour.

And no, no point about me going on with my so-called 'bullshit argument trap'. as clearly you can't handle the truth.

As for my assumption with about volunteerism: If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck and looks like a duck, it's 100% duck. Your kind works about volunteering shows your viewpoint on it. You wouldn't be so quick to call it child labour if you had a positive viewpoint on this.
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(02-10-2020, 02:22 AM)the_councillor Wrote:
(02-10-2020, 02:04 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: Yes, that refers to the fact that they did not hire the hundreds of bylaw officers it would require to patrol every sidewalk after every storm.

Are you suggesting this immense investment in enforcement is your solution?

Because that doesn't refer to the fact that the program wasn't covering the whole city, and if that's what you're suggesting, I'll be generous and say you're being dishonest.


I'll be generous too... the exact words that you called me out on were: "a small area of the city" whereas the staff report quite literally said "a small fraction of the city" ...I'm quite content to let the readers determine who is being honest.

You aren't answering the question. The staff report, as you voted, confirms that the enforcement was rolled out to the whole city. Staff believe they have enforced within the whole city--this is the coverage of enforcement they expect within the city. This wasn't a localized pilot. So what do you intend to change to make it work because we all know sidewalks weren't clear.
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(02-10-2020, 02:44 AM)jeffster Wrote:
(02-10-2020, 02:09 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: 1) I was very clear, snowplows drive fast and are occasionally involved in fatal collisions, I know of no such case where a sidewalk plow involved in plowing operations was involved in a fatal collision.

Now maybe you've raised other concerns, but I'll point out for seemingly the trillionth time, other cities manage to do this, we aren't some special incompetent flower, where we are the only city which can't plow our sidewalks.

2) So then why don't we have volunteers clear the roads, and let the professionals handle the sidewalks?  Or do the grass cutting in summer.  Why is it that the ONLY public service you bellieve should be handled by free child labor is sidewalk clearing?

Your accusation that I don't volunteer is ignorant, I don't have to answer to you, but making assumptions makes an ass out of you.

No, I didn't fall for your bullshit "trap" argument, I called it out...like all false arguments should be, you want to try a third time?

1) You're 100% ignorant on this topic. So now the snowplough are a danger "to the public" as obviously any sort of fatality wouldn't involve the truck driver (who's max speed will be around 40 kph).

Seemingly trillionth -- I have no idea what you're talking about. Do you know what a trillion is?

What cities have 'managed' to do this fine and with happy customers? Guelph? Ottawa? Some part of Toronto? Ask the man on his mobility device in an suburban centre how his trip went after the storm. I have. Not good. Not happy. "But, they can only do so much...but they should though concentrate on areas where disabled people live..."

And the city DOES plow sidewalks -- just not the entire city. How the hell else would I know that operators have suffered driving this contraptions? Bolded the above for context to my answer.

2) Again, this shows your ignorance in snow removal operations: Meditate on this: teens don't have their full license. Teens can't work 12 hour days and go to school. Teens don't have DZ training and license (D for truck over 24,000 pounds, Z is Air Brake endorsement). Teens can't be 'on-call' for snow removal. Does the city want to spend millions training hundreds of people to get their DZ license to have them only available for a few hours -- maybe? Really, that's your solution?

Second, where did I say that the only public service I "bellieve" should be done by child labour? Child labour, as mandated by the previous Liberal government, never specified what children can and couldn't do, as long as it was safe. Personally, I don't give a rats ass what these kids do. They wanna work at a community centre? Sure. Old age home? Sure. I don't care of the what and where. I was making a suggestion which clearly offended you, for whatever reason. When I was a kid, I shovelled, for free, my elderly neighbours sidewalk. I guess I was a victim of child labour.

And no, no point about me going on with my so-called 'bullshit argument trap'. as clearly you can't handle the truth.

As for my assumption with about volunteerism: If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck and looks like a duck, it's 100% duck. Your kind works about volunteering shows your viewpoint on it. You wouldn't be so quick to call it child labour if you had a positive viewpoint on this.

1) I never suggested that snowplowing was a "danger to the public" and you're lying to suggest I did. The fatalities I've spoken about did in fact involve the driver.

Yes, trillionth, you know hyperbole, right? 

Yes, lots of people complain about sidewalk clearing, in London where I'm from, I complained about sidewalk clearing in London where I'm from. That doesn't mean it wasn't vastly better than what we have. Like you, I lacked perspective.  Having moved, and traveled more, I now have a better understanding of the different options.

And yes, we do plow our sidewalks.  So again, it is absurd for you to suggest that we cannot do so....

2) It also requires training to operate a sidewalk plow, your solution is to give them snow blowers instead (a bad idea, but whatever), so let them use snowblowers to clear the road too.

And yes, students volunteer all over, but nobody has ever suggested that the solution to running community centres or old age homes is student volunteers. None of those services depend on child labor, if all the volunteers disappeared tomorrow, the community centres would still be open.  But for sidewalk clearing, you suggest students are the solution, if students stopped volunteering we'd no longer have sidewalk clearing. Are you pretending to not understand the difference here?

Why do you keep specifing that it was the liberal's policy that students must volunteer? Seems very strange, unless you believe it's scoring you political points.

Frankly, you're being dishonest with your discussions here.  I don't know why.
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https://hbr.org/2015/07/the-internet-mak...an-you-are
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(02-10-2020, 01:45 AM)the_councillor Wrote:
(02-10-2020, 01:22 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: It is concerning, to put it very politely, that a city councillor, who believes he has heavily researched an issue, who VOTED on this issue, and presumably read the staff report which he presents as evidence of the projects success, is unaware of this fact.

@the_councillor would you care to revise your position in light of this?

Nope.  Good try though.
From the same report...

[Image: EHLo5du.png]

Look, I was the one you made the clarification to, because I honestly believed that the bylaw officers were working in the whole city. I understand that they can't possibly inspect every single stretch of sidewalk on any given day, but I'm left now wondering: did they do mine, or any other given neighbourhood? Did the neighbourhoods I walk in fall within a pilot area, or not? If they did, my feedback is that the efforts did not dissuade the habitual scofflaw property owners who simply do not clear their sidewalks.

I would suggest that it is within the city's power to make the existing bylaw work. Respond in a timely manner to complaints. If it's possible to levy punitive fines, do it, and make them high enough that no property owner would risk receiving a second fine. If that's not possible, refer those sidewalks to contractors in a timely manner, and add any property referred to a list that gets proactive inspection so that it will be referred again.

It seems to me that it's politics that prevents that from happening. Of course, you'll get complaints from property owners who tried their best, or thought they did, or thought their reason for not clearing was good enough. Or you'll have complaints from people who couldn't cope with the weather. It seems like that's what happened last year: we had an icy winter with variable weather that made clearing more difficult than it might have been, so eventually bylaw changed its standard to "passable" (which still has never been defined) so as to avoid generating work orders for contractors that would have angered property owners.
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I'd be curious to know what area was covered by proactive enforcement as well. My reading of that report was that enforcement included the whole city, but that by-law officers are only able to cover so much territory, so that some areas aren't getting enforcement at any given time. That could mean that they restricted it to a limited area, in which case it would be nice to know what area enforcement was limited to, or it could mean that they covered some areas one day, other areas the next, and so forth, and simply were unable to provide full enforcement in any area. I don't think the report makes it clear which was the case.
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(02-10-2020, 09:17 AM)danbrotherston Wrote:
(02-10-2020, 02:44 AM)jeffster Wrote: 1) You're 100% ignorant on this topic. So now the snowplough are a danger "to the public" as obviously any sort of fatality wouldn't involve the truck driver (who's max speed will be around 40 kph).

Seemingly trillionth -- I have no idea what you're talking about. Do you know what a trillion is?

What cities have 'managed' to do this fine and with happy customers? Guelph? Ottawa? Some part of Toronto? Ask the man on his mobility device in an suburban centre how his trip went after the storm. I have. Not good. Not happy. "But, they can only do so much...but they should though concentrate on areas where disabled people live..."

And the city DOES plow sidewalks -- just not the entire city. How the hell else would I know that operators have suffered driving this contraptions? Bolded the above for context to my answer.

2) Again, this shows your ignorance in snow removal operations: Meditate on this: teens don't have their full license. Teens can't work 12 hour days and go to school. Teens don't have DZ training and license (D for truck over 24,000 pounds, Z is Air Brake endorsement). Teens can't be 'on-call' for snow removal. Does the city want to spend millions training hundreds of people to get their DZ license to have them only available for a few hours -- maybe? Really, that's your solution?

Second, where did I say that the only public service I "bellieve" should be done by child labour? Child labour, as mandated by the previous Liberal government, never specified what children can and couldn't do, as long as it was safe. Personally, I don't give a rats ass what these kids do. They wanna work at a community centre? Sure. Old age home? Sure. I don't care of the what and where. I was making a suggestion which clearly offended you, for whatever reason. When I was a kid, I shovelled, for free, my elderly neighbours sidewalk. I guess I was a victim of child labour.

And no, no point about me going on with my so-called 'bullshit argument trap'. as clearly you can't handle the truth.

As for my assumption with about volunteerism: If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck and looks like a duck, it's 100% duck. Your kind works about volunteering shows your viewpoint on it. You wouldn't be so quick to call it child labour if you had a positive viewpoint on this.

1) I never suggested that snowplowing was a "danger to the public" and you're lying to suggest I did. The fatalities I've spoken about did in fact involve the driver.

Yes, trillionth, you know hyperbole, right? 

Yes, lots of people complain about sidewalk clearing, in London where I'm from, I complained about sidewalk clearing in London where I'm from. That doesn't mean it wasn't vastly better than what we have. Like you, I lacked perspective.  Having moved, and traveled more, I now have a better understanding of the different options.

[And yes, we do plow our sidewalks.  So again, it is absurd for you to suggest that we cannot do so....

2) It also requires training to operate a sidewalk plow, your solution is to give them snow blowers instead (a bad idea, but whatever), so let them use snowblowers to clear the road too.

And yes, students volunteer all over, but nobody has ever suggested that the solution to running community centres or old age homes is student volunteers. None of those services depend on child labor, if all the volunteers disappeared tomorrow, the community centres would still be open.  But for sidewalk clearing, you suggest students are the solution, if students stopped volunteering we'd no longer have sidewalk clearing. Are you pretending to not understand the difference here?

Why do you keep specifing that it was the liberal's policy that students must volunteer? Seems very strange, unless you believe it's scoring you political points.

Frankly, you're being dishonest with your discussions here.  I don't know why.

Dan, re-read this entire thread.

1) When a plow operator in doing snow removal, who's more at risk? The driver or the public? This isn't a trick question, and it doesn't require a degree in physics to figure out. When you keep on mentioning that plow operations are a danger, I have to bring out the point that obviously it would be to the public, not the operator -- I just assumed you knew that too, but clearly I was wrong. Obviously you're thinking of the occupation only, drivers of trucks, versus slow moving sidewalk clearing vehicles.

Within the city, or any city, I don't know of any operator that has died as a result of their job, unless their being super careless and speeding. But I don't know of any cases. I do know of cases locally where a plow operator ploughed into a homeless person sleeping on the roadside. I also have heard stories of children building snow castles from snow banks and being injured. As for injuries to those that drive the sidewalk machines, yes, I know of some that have broken bodies as a result of these machines. Not to mention hearing issues. How other cities try to mitigate the risk, I have no idea. Most likely they don't do much and it just come with the territory -- much like abuse if your a bus operator, long hours if your fly commercial jet, etc.

Now operators on the highway? Operators in mountainous regions? Sure, this is likely more dangerous (as to serious injury or death). But this isn't what we're talking about. But that's the only time I can think that there is a danger.

"And yes, we do plow our sidewalks.  So again, it is absurd for you to suggest that we cannot do so...." - yet you were the one that said the city didn't, not me.

2) OK, so now you're digging deeper into that rabbit hole, yes, yes, yes, let's give them a snowblower and they can do the streets as well, because, it's the exact same thing as clearing a stretch of sidewalk, really no different, actually, so you're right. The city would save millions of dollars doing this.

And I didn't suggest the kids run community centres -- it was you that suggested that child labour could run our water supply -- somehow ignoring the fact that these things are different. (snow removal versus water supply)

As for community centres -- do you know how these are run? Each community centre has neighbourhood associations that figure out what programming is needed, needs of their neighbourhood, and when programs would be run and finding instructors for said programs (and how much, if anything, they'll get paid). These are unpaid positions (that is, those that run the neighbourhood associations). So volunteers are responsible for setting up these programs, and they co-ordinate with the city staff. If the volunteers disappeared tomorrow, you wouldn't have your programs running, and therefore the community centres would serve little purpose other than rental enquiries, which likely would be all private. But it shows you lack of knowledge how things are run, your poor attitude towards volunteering and how little value you place on it, because, as you said, "if all the volunteers disappeared tomorrow, the community centres would still be open." Because you know what? If they disappeared tomorrow, the centre would not be open for business as usual. And many other places they depend on volunteers would be screwed, as would their clients. But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe volunteers aren't needed and perhaps their useless.

And not trying to score political points with the Liberal initiative -- I'm just making it clear that this is their project, and I am 99% sure there was no intent of creating free child labour. Do I agree with that policy? Not really, but I can't argue that it's a horrible idea and it does have merit.

I also didn't suggest that child labour (as you call it) was the solution to our sidewalks. I said it was an option for children to get their mandated hours in. And I stand by that. When it comes to this child labour, the children can decide for themselves what they want to do. And it would be up to the city to decide if this was a viable solution. Is it worth the costs of buying potentially hundreds of snowblowers, tuning them up after the winter and storing them somewhere, ensuring availability of gas for the machines, and some training. I can't answer that. Perhaps it's a bad solution. Perhaps it's not.

I know where you stand on this topic. I have no problem with someone thinking this is not a great idea. But for discussion purposes, when you're starting off with this 'child labour' crap, and might as well get the children to maintain the water supply while we're at it, and hell, use snowblowers on city roadways and nothing changes if the volunteers disappeared tomorrow, what does it show people? Bring out the popcorn maybe at best? I know I want some after reading your posts.

I do give you a pass regarding the dangers of road snowploughs versus sidewalk snowploughs. You have never been in the field (been the driver for either or), you have never spoken with workers, and I am not going to try to guess where you got your info.
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I live in the pilot area and honestly, I was a bit worried that if sidewalks were not cleared well that it would give people reason to not support sidewalk clearing. However, I have been very impressed with the level of clearance and have heard from many neighbours the very same. I then wondered if the clear sidewalks was more due to a milder winter than say last year. However, every time I end up in a neighbourhood that's not in the pilot, I am reminded that's not the case. I have sludged through some neighbourhoods, many days after any snow has fallen, only to come home to my neighbourhood's very walkable sidewalks. Whereas last year's proactive enforcement made little, if any, improvement to the walkabiity of the city.

If the city takes over sidewalk clearing, will there be complaints about the level of service? i suspect so. However, I hear complaints about road clearing too and no one seems to be suggesting that we should cut that service just because all roads can't be cleared as soon as the last snow flake hits the ground.

I'm also curious about concerns about costs with this work as I don't think I have ever heard any serious, consistent concerns around road clearing. Because we as a society believe we need clear roads throughout the entire city, few people question the costs associated with that. Unfortunately we don't have that benefit with sidewalk clearing.
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(02-13-2020, 12:25 PM)dtkmelissa Wrote: I live in the pilot area and honestly, I was a bit worried that if sidewalks were not cleared well that it would give people reason to not support sidewalk clearing. However, I have been very impressed with the level of clearance and have heard from many neighbours the very same. I then wondered if the clear sidewalks was more due to a milder winter than say last year. However, every time I end up in a neighbourhood that's not in the pilot, I am reminded that's not the case. I have sludged through some neighbourhoods, many days after any snow has fallen, only to come home to my neighbourhood's very walkable sidewalks. Whereas last year's proactive enforcement made little, if any, improvement to the walkabiity of the city.

If the city takes over sidewalk clearing, will there be complaints about the level of service? i suspect so. However, I hear complaints about road clearing too and no one seems to be suggesting that we should cut that service just because all roads can't be cleared as soon as the last snow flake hits the ground.

I'm also curious about concerns about costs with this work as I don't think I have ever heard any serious, consistent concerns around road clearing. Because we as a society believe we need clear roads throughout the entire city, few people question the costs associated with that. Unfortunately we don't have that benefit with sidewalk clearing.

All good questions. When it comes to road clearing, the city has a certain budget for this type of work. This includes OT for workers when we have multiple snow events over a short period of time. When it is milder, workers are expected to do other stuff, it could include pothole repair, repair to playground equipment, etc. Depending on the year, you could either go over or under your budget, and obviously you have little control of this.

Something that would need to be factored in if the city decided to have sidewalk clearing, is how do you staff it? And what do these workers do in the off season? If you need reliable staff, then at the very least you need to guarantee hours to them, and chances are that union rules would require proper hours. I am thinking that this would be a concern to the city as you're not just hiring staff for 3 or 4 months, with irregular work, but it might be season work that is 10 months long (which is generally what they have to give temp workers).

My understanding is that right now plow operators have lost their wingman and this was recent. It may have something to do with the pilot project, but I am not sure on that. The city has grown a lot over the years, and likely they need more operators regardless and they're looking for ways to cut costs without service reduction and the newer trucks are easier to operator with only one person. (The older trucks were standard transmission so one hand on steering wheel, one hand on shifter -- no hands for shovel -- hence the wingman).

Has our weather been a factor this year? Considering that January was one of the warmest on record, I am guessing it was. Would there be complaints? I am guessing there would be.

I think if we got some sustained cold weather with heavy snow and some freeze thaw (due to the sun) cycles and snow packed and iced sidewalks that is difficult to take care of, then we'd have a better idea how this will all work.
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It started off well, but the last few snowfalls haven't been cleared in as timely a fashion.
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(02-16-2020, 03:26 PM)Bytor Wrote: It started off well, but the last few snowfalls haven't been cleared in as timely a fashion.

So it's going to be very dependant on how bad the weather can get, multiple snow events might create issues.
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[Image: O0dglZJ.png]
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Thanks for posting that. The consequences of uncleared walks can be serious. Hopefully that lady heals up quick and there are no complications from the procedure.

I wonder what the cost of that surgery is to the taxpayer (there is only one, after all).
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(02-27-2020, 02:57 PM)MidTowner Wrote: Thanks for posting that. The consequences of uncleared walks can be serious. Hopefully that lady heals up quick and there are no complications from the procedure.

I wonder what the cost of that surgery is to the taxpayer (there is only one, after all).

I second this, having had a bad fall on Sunday, I was fortunate to walk away only bruised. The reddit thread about this post is very enlightening.
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