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The COVID-19 pandemic
The "leave responsibility for isolation to those at risk to" is not a real solution.

It's a lie people tell themselves in order to justify their behaviour.

But I digress. We are literally lifting restrictions right now. I think a lot of people think that "ending COVID restrictions" means more, stop reminding me that COVID exists, and less legal restrictions on occupancy (I mean, the fire code existed before the pandemic, so even that isn't new).

FWIW, I think we can get to a state where most restrictions are lifted, but masking is required in some contexts, (hospitals, drs offices, maybe winter on buses/grocery), ventilation is improved everywhere, and vaccines are mandatory.

I.e., we'll get to a place very similar to what we had before the pandemic, (mandatory vaccines are nothing new) but things will be a little better, and a little safer, not just from COVID but from all respiratory viruses and also from indoor air pollution.

But I don't think that's what the "end COVID" people want, they want a world functionally and tonally identical to before...they don't even want to hear the word COVID. And ultimately, like all opposition to change as a concept, it's wishing for a unicorn.
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That's funny, Quebec polling is quite different.

https://www.inspq.qc.ca/covid-19/sondage...nvier-2022

"I prefer to run the risk of getting COVID-19 rather than giving up my social life and my activities": for 26%, against 74%.

Also, the University of Waterloo employee survey showed that a pretty overwhelming majority of people are not keen to return to campus on February 7. Again, 76% rated their feelings about it as "terrible" to "OK" and 24% rated it as better-than-OK to great (7 point scale).
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Yeah different polls have provided different results. The thing with Angus Reid polls is that they poll people who sign up to receive polls from them rather than cold calling random numbers around the country. Statistically/mathematically, their polls are solid but their methodology can be called into question.
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(02-01-2022, 11:12 AM)ac3r Wrote: Majority of Canadians (54%) now say it's time to end Covid restrictions and leave responsibility for isolation to those at risk. This is up from 40% in early January: https://twitter.com/angusreid/status/148...2192695297

People are tired. Over 90% are vaccinated that are ‘eligible’.

A different approach needs to be done when it comes to Covid though, Canada’s approach has been sort of an outlier, but not the great results that one would have hoped for.

Hopefully better vaccine are made, better medication/treatments for those who are ill.
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(02-01-2022, 01:27 PM)jeffster Wrote:
(02-01-2022, 11:12 AM)ac3r Wrote: Majority of Canadians (54%) now say it's time to end Covid restrictions and leave responsibility for isolation to those at risk. This is up from 40% in early January: https://twitter.com/angusreid/status/148...2192695297

People are tired. Over 90% are vaccinated that are ‘eligible’.

A different approach needs to be done when it comes to Covid though, Canada’s approach has been sort of an outlier, but not the great results that one would have hoped for.

Hopefully better vaccine are made, better medication/treatments for those who are ill.

I'm curious how you feel our approach has been an outlier.

I feel like we've been definitively average, less lockdowns than a lot of places, but a much stronger vaccination program, but again, with limited mandates.

As for results, certainly I think we could have done better, but we really do have to compare with top tier countries to feel bad, we did much better than average here.
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(02-01-2022, 01:29 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:
(02-01-2022, 01:27 PM)jeffster Wrote: People are tired. Over 90% are vaccinated that are ‘eligible’.

A different approach needs to be done when it comes to Covid though, Canada’s approach has been sort of an outlier, but not the great results that one would have hoped for.

Hopefully better vaccine are made, better medication/treatments for those who are ill.

I'm curious how you feel our approach has been an outlier.

I feel like we've been definitively average, less lockdowns than a lot of places, but a much stronger vaccination program, but again, with limited mandates.

As for results, certainly I think we could have done better, but we really do have to compare with top tier countries to feel bad, we did much better than average here.

Yeah. Not an outlier. The US is the outlier and their death numbers have shown that. Canada is slightly better than average on most metrics (even though death counts are underestimates everywhere outside Quebec).
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The vaccines still work very well; most vaccines do not prevent infection although we've been lead to believe that by the government and pundits. Even the polio vaccine doesn't prevent infection.

An omicron targeted vaccine will likely prevent infection for a large amount of people for a limited amount of time. It's probably useful for the elderly and immunocompromised but the rest of us do not really need it.
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(02-01-2022, 01:27 PM)jeffster Wrote:
(02-01-2022, 11:12 AM)ac3r Wrote: Majority of Canadians (54%) now say it's time to end Covid restrictions and leave responsibility for isolation to those at risk. This is up from 40% in early January: https://twitter.com/angusreid/status/148...2192695297

People are tired. Over 90% are vaccinated that are ‘eligible’.

A different approach needs to be done when it comes to Covid though, Canada’s approach has been sort of an outlier, but not the great results that one would have hoped for.

Hopefully better vaccine are made, better medication/treatments for those who are ill.

Thankfully we have the new Pfizer medication that was recently approved in Canada in addition to one of the best vaccination campaigns on the planet. We've done an incredible job here. We've done all we can and keep doing more. The people that still believe in Covid Zero who want to shutter small businesses and wear masks for the next 20 years might say otherwise, unfortunately, but we're hitting the point - both nationally and internationally - where people can see the obvious which is that we need to alter our strategies on protecting those who are truly vulnerable rather than continuing with this perpetual "let's lock everyone down" approach we've been flip flopping on for two years. Or who wish to go into the extremes like some people truly want, including imprisonment of the unvaccinated or having them rounded up and forcibly given the vaccine. Those people are just as insane as the anti-vax people.
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No one is promoting or suggesting COVID Zero in Canada, though. And we haven't had a single lockdown, at least not in Ontario.
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I believe that is called the strawman argument... No one is arguing for covid zero.
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(02-01-2022, 04:00 PM)tomh009 Wrote: No one is promoting or suggesting COVID Zero in Canada, though. And we haven't had a single lockdown, at least not in Ontario.

I suppose the question is, how do you define 'lockdown'? Chinese style, no. But when staff are lock-out of work, because certain businesses are unable to open, that's sort of a lock down. Just because it doesn't affect everyone doesn't mean is doesn't exist. Further, and I should qualify, those listening to public health measures, when one is required to self-isolate for x# of days, that too is sort of a lockdown.

But I do get that for a lot of folks it's business as usual. Same paycheque as usual. Same work, different days. For those who hide in their house most of the time (self-imposed lockdown), this covid experience has meant nothing to them.

And remember, the Federal Government considers what we have a 'lockdown'. Otherwise, it wouldn't be called a lockdown benefit.

https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/...nefit.html
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(02-01-2022, 01:29 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:
(02-01-2022, 01:27 PM)jeffster Wrote: People are tired. Over 90% are vaccinated that are ‘eligible’.

A different approach needs to be done when it comes to Covid though, Canada’s approach has been sort of an outlier, but not the great results that one would have hoped for.

Hopefully better vaccine are made, better medication/treatments for those who are ill.

I'm curious how you feel our approach has been an outlier.

I feel like we've been definitively average, less lockdowns than a lot of places, but a much stronger vaccination program, but again, with limited mandates.

As for results, certainly I think we could have done better, but we really do have to compare with top tier countries to feel bad, we did much better than average here.

Actually, it seems like almost every country has been an outlier -- but if that's the case, I guess it could be called something different.

Whatever the case, every country approached this differently, and results haven't been terrific for anyone.
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Current 7-day Covid-19 cases per 100k

• Chatham-Kent Public Health 384.7
• Northwestern Health Unit 376.4
• Thunder Bay District Health Unit 362.1
• Algoma Public Health 321.6
• Public Health Sudbury & Districts 308.0
• Windsor-Essex County Health Unit 298.5
• Peel Public Health 278.5
• Eastern Ontario Health Unit 266.4
• Middlesex-London Health Unit 258.3
• Haldimand-Norfolk Health Unit 256.0
• Porcupine Health Unit 255.3
• Niagara Region Public Health 253.1
• Lambton Public Health 250.5
• Haliburton, Kawartha, Pine Ridge District Health Unit 246.1
• City of Hamilton Public Health Services 235.2

• Region of Waterloo Public Health and Emergency Services 222.1

• Simcoe Muskoka District Health Unit 219.7
• Southwestern Public Health 213.7
• Halton Region Public Health 212.9
• Brant County Health Unit 201.7
• Renfrew County and District Health Unit 200.7

• Hastings Prince Edward Public Health 199.4
• Leeds, Grenville & Lanark District Health Unit 196.3
• Ottawa Public Health 191.0
• Durham Region Health Department 186.8
• Huron Perth Public Health 181.7
• North Bay Parry Sound District Health Unit 179.6
• Wellington-Dufferin-Guelph Public Health 175.1
• Toronto Public Health 173.6
• York Region Public Health 152.1
• Kingston, Frontenac and Lennox & Addington Public Health 150.4
• Peterborough Public Health 150.0
• Timiskaming Health Unit 149.9
• Grey Bruce Health Unit 140.1


• TOTAL ONTARIO 214.2
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(02-01-2022, 04:00 PM)tomh009 Wrote: No one is promoting or suggesting COVID Zero in Canada, though. And we haven't had a single lockdown, at least not in Ontario.

(02-01-2022, 04:16 PM)JoeKW Wrote: I believe that is called the strawman argument... No one is arguing for covid zero.

Meh, you know what I mean. Forget about the semantics. And to say we haven't had a lockdown is just nonsense no matter how you attempt to define what a lockdown is. In 2020, we were removing basketball nets from public courts, putting caution tape up on playgrounds, chaining swings to the poles. Police were given power to start questioning people in the street as to why they were out, although as far as I know, not a single police force ever did that...most said there was no way in hell they would be doing it. The province had repeatedly invoked a stay-at-home order, stating that nobody was to go anywhere unless one was working, accessing health services, going to school or exercising although they left what that meant fairly ambigious because it was never going to be truly enforceable.

In an ideal world, we eliminate the virus from circulation, though that likely won't happen. My point is that there are people out there that for whatever reason believe we should keep doing what we're doing in perpetuity. I don't deny the measures we've taken have an impact, whether it is lockdowns (again, forget about the semantics of that word...we all know that implies closures to whatever degree), masks, vaccinations etc. They've worked.

I simply believe that we need to start considering how we can readjust our strategies to fight this while finally returning to normality because this virus is going to be out there for a while. And one strategy we should be starting to consider involves protecting the minority of people who are more vulnerable to this disease than others. Remember Doug Ford's "Iron Ring" idea? The majority of us are vaccinated, healthy and will easily survive this should we become infected. There are plenty out there who aren't so fortunate, though, so at this point we should be focusing on how to specifically protect them. The measures we took at the start are not sustainable in the long term. They've also failed to keep things under control when you look at things on a larger scale. So much for the "just two weeks to flatten the curve" nonsense. The measures that we keep relying on are having dire consequences on many aspects of life - from economics, education, mental and physical health, food security, employment, politics, culture and so on. This stuff is extremely important and needs to be balanced with public health measures to fight the pandemic. It's not just the virus/disease that can and is destroying lives.
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(02-01-2022, 02:20 PM)JoeKW Wrote: The vaccines still work very well; most vaccines do not prevent infection although we've been lead to believe that by the government and pundits. Even the polio vaccine doesn't prevent infection.

An omicron targeted vaccine will likely prevent infection for a large amount of people for a limited amount of time.  It's probably useful for the elderly and immunocompromised but the rest of us do not really need it.

The benefits of an omicron vaccine that I can see are: less chance of long COVID; even more reduction in transmission; and longer-lasting immunity. All need to be empirically shown before we really know. But such a vaccine could be a useful tool, though less useful than a pan-coronavirus vaccine.
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