Welcome Guest!
In order to take advantage of all the great features that Waterloo Region Connected has to offer, including participating in the lively discussions below, you're going to have to register. The good news is that it'll take less than a minute and you can get started enjoying Waterloo Region's best online community right away.
or Create an Account




Thread Rating:
  • 1 Vote(s) - 5 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Minimum wages and universal basic income
#31
(04-16-2020, 08:49 PM)ijmorlan Wrote:
(04-16-2020, 01:12 PM)jamincan Wrote: I think I got confused with the Liberal opposition to the GST and then later keeping it on. Regardless, a UBI would be a good policy to come out of this, if it does.

You may be forgiven for being confused by the ever-changing promises made during election campaigns. It doesn’t help that after the Liberals didn’t cancel it, the Conservatives (who first introduced it) then reduced the rate.

That was their promise though -- with most of their PC Caucus long removed. Technically different parties and completely different people.
Reply


#32
(04-17-2020, 03:07 PM)jeffster Wrote:
(04-16-2020, 08:49 PM)ijmorlan Wrote: You may be forgiven for being confused by the ever-changing promises made during election campaigns. It doesn’t help that after the Liberals didn’t cancel it, the Conservatives (who first introduced it) then reduced the rate.

That was their promise though -- with most of their PC Caucus long removed. Technically different parties and completely different people.

Yes, true, I didn’t mean to imply anything about anybody’s consistency. It’s just confusing that after a party with a C in its name introduced the tax, it was another very similar party with C in its name that actually reduced it rather than the L party that opposed its introduction and promised to remove it but didn’t.
Reply
#33
(04-17-2020, 11:24 AM)panamaniac Wrote:
(04-17-2020, 08:12 AM)Rainrider22 Wrote: An employees should not feel entitled to tip though if they provide poor service.  The whole point of gratuity is that the employee DOES have the bargaining power.  The server provides an above average experience and they get an above average tip.  I worked in hospitality albeit a long time ago...

I don't think I've ever had service in a restaurant in K-W that I considered "above average".  On the other hand, I've not had many bad service experiences either.  That said, I'm probably a below average tipper - usually 15% on the cost of the food (only), plus a buck or two if they opened a bottle of wine.

Canadian minimum wages are also not quite as much of a joke as American ones.

I don't think we have places in KW that are as high end as where one would expect exceptional experiences (say Four Seasons or a Michelin 3* restaurant). As it turns out, we like KW food more than NZ food, but it's not because KW food is high-end, it's because it's tasty.

We always talk about % tips but we don't usually specify if it's 15% of the pre-tax amount or the post-tax amount. Which aren't quite the same.
Reply
#34
(04-17-2020, 09:55 PM)ijmorlan Wrote:
(04-17-2020, 03:07 PM)jeffster Wrote: That was their promise though -- with most of their PC Caucus long removed. Technically different parties and completely different people.

Yes, true, I didn’t mean to imply anything about anybody’s consistency. It’s just confusing that after a party with a C in its name introduced the tax, it was another very similar party with C in its name that actually reduced it rather than the L party that opposed its introduction and promised to remove it but didn’t.

Well, doesn't help either that the old Liberal party (1993-2006) were Liberal Blue, and the PC were red Tory's. So very little difference between the PC and Liberals of old. The old Liberals would not be doing with JT is doing, that's for sure. There would be a lot of tough love going on right now.
Reply
#35
(04-17-2020, 08:12 AM)Rainrider22 Wrote: An employees should not feel entitled to tip though if they provide poor service.  The whole point of gratuity is that the employee DOES have the bargaining power.  The server provides an above average experience and they get an above average tip.  I worked in hospitality albeit a long time ago...

What you are describing is the theory, not the reality.

In Canada and the US, tipping is expected, in that it is part of someone's wages. The only circumstances I wouldn't tip is when I would expect not to pay any other bill.

I do not like this, it's abusrd that I pay part of a worker's salary directly. I feel it is abusive to workers, it is unpleasant for me, but that is the reality, I would never not tip just because I don't like the system that people work within.
Reply
#36
(04-17-2020, 11:26 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:
(04-17-2020, 08:12 AM)Rainrider22 Wrote: An employees should not feel entitled to tip though if they provide poor service.  The whole point of gratuity is that the employee DOES have the bargaining power.  The server provides an above average experience and they get an above average tip.  I worked in hospitality albeit a long time ago...

What you are describing is the theory, not the reality.

In Canada and the US, tipping is expected, in that it is part of someone's wages. The only circumstances I wouldn't tip is when I would expect not to pay any other bill.

I do not like this, it's abusrd that I pay part of a worker's salary directly. I feel it is abusive to workers, it is unpleasant for me, but that is the reality, I would never not tip just because I don't like the system that people work within.

I hate our set-up too. The whole tipping thing is a scam for restaurant owners pay less than standard minimum wage. And it's a crappy way sift out the lousy workers. I tip and put up with it because I realize that these workers are underpaid, and I do my best to make that payment cash so the owner doesn't keep. What bothers me is the tip suggestions: 15, 20, 25. I grew up that it was 10% at a non-fancy restaurant, decent service. 15% for excellent service at non-fancy restaurant and 20% at a fancy restaurant (where poor service is unusual).

Only once have I gave a $0 tip. Horrible service. Came and got our drink order, then went missing, I found where the cups were kept and got my kids to get their own pop, she finally came around, without any drinks (I wanted a beer) and ask if we were ready to order, sure, I also asked for my drink. She's gone for another 10 minutes, I called over another waitress and she got me the beer, food came out, but served by management. Was visited once after getting the meal, maybe 20 minutes, kids wanted their kids meal dessert (this was Boston Pizza), kids tell her what they want, then she's gone for another 20 minutes and so I directed the kids to the kitchen to get their dessert, and kitchen complied. I got another waitress to bring me the bill, and finally the waitress came back, all friendly as shit and telling me how she's starting Uni in Sept and how expensive it is and shit. No sorry or explanation why we had to suffer close to 90 minutes between sitting down and paying for out bill

$0 tip. This waitress was very pretty. But a pretty face shouldn't be a requirement for a tip. Poor service, bad service suck bad enough, but pretty much zero service is not acceptable. But that was the only time I have did a $0 tip.
Reply
#37
(04-18-2020, 02:28 AM)jeffster Wrote: I hate our set-up too. The whole tipping thing is a scam for restaurant owners pay less than standard minimum wage. And it's a crappy way sift out the lousy workers. I tip and put up with it because I realize that these workers are underpaid, and I do my best to make that payment cash so the owner doesn't keep. What bothers me is the tip suggestions: 15, 20, 25. I grew up that it was 10% at a non-fancy restaurant, decent service. 15% for excellent service at non-fancy restaurant and 20% at a fancy restaurant (where poor service is unusual).

Tip inflation. I don't get it, but here we are. The machine tip suggestions are also definitely post-tax numbers.
Reply


#38
In the US most restaurants the servers entire wage is the tip. So you feel obligated to tip there. Here my baseline is 15-16% and goes up or down based on service.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage
Reply
#39
(04-17-2020, 11:15 PM)plam Wrote: We always talk about % tips but we don't usually specify if it's 15% of the pre-tax amount or the post-tax amount. Which aren't quite the same.

In theory, the percentage, whatever it is, should be of the pre-tax amount. Anybody who disagrees is saying that tips should go down if the tax rate goes down, which doesn’t make a lot of sense. If somebody thinks the percentage should be higher then they should say so, rather then engage in a distraction.

In practice, I just hit the 15% button, which uses the after-tax amount. It's simpler that way.

Another problem with the automatic calculation is that it doesn’t know the proper base for calculation. If I use a coupon, the suggested 15% is 15% of the amount left over after using the coupon, which is not correct. In the extreme case, the coupon would be for a free meal, leaving 0 left over.

Ideally, the cash register would send the pre-tax, pre-coupon base price to the payment terminal along with the actual amount owing, and it would use the base price to calculate percentage tips.

Or we could just do away with the whole nonsense.

The other thing about tip inflation that is irritating is that because the amount is already a percentage, inflation is automatically taken into account. Where does it stop? 33% tip? 40%? 50%?

Oh, and no tips for counter pickup or takeout (with the possible exception of somebody who is extraordinary). Enough already. We should be reducing, not increasing, the prevalence of tipping. It’s pre-modern, and not in the good way.
Reply
#40
(04-17-2020, 11:15 PM)plam Wrote:
(04-17-2020, 11:24 AM)panamaniac Wrote: I don't think I've ever had service in a restaurant in K-W that I considered "above average".  On the other hand, I've not had many bad service experiences either.  That said, I'm probably a below average tipper - usually 15% on the cost of the food (only), plus a buck or two if they opened a bottle of wine.

Canadian minimum wages are also not quite as much of a joke as American ones.

I don't think we have places in KW that are as high end as where one would expect exceptional experiences (say Four Seasons or a Michelin 3* restaurant). As it turns out, we like KW food more than NZ food, but it's not because KW food is high-end, it's because it's tasty.

We always talk about % tips but we don't usually specify if it's 15% of the pre-tax amount or the post-tax amount. Which aren't quite the same.

I got annoyed when the machines started prompting me to put in a set percentage tip and I realized that the amount included the tax, which I object to tipping on.  So I now make a small downward adjustment to pay a tip (15% or slightly more) that is based only on the bill for the food I've consumed.  My friends all think I'm a cheap b**tard!
Reply
#41
(04-18-2020, 10:05 AM)ijmorlan Wrote: The other thing about tip inflation that is irritating is that because the amount is already a percentage, inflation is automatically taken into account. Where does it stop? 33% tip? 40%? 50%?

You assume that minimum wages is indexed on something that tracks inflation. That's only the case in 7 provinces and territories [1] now, and in 17 states as of 2018 [2]. Tip inflation is the way that restaurant staff start approaching living wages. It's irritating to us because we are consumers trained by a capitalist society to devalue labour and to dislike paying the full cost of the services and products we consume.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage_in_Canada
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wa...n_indexing
Reply
#42
(04-18-2020, 11:16 AM)robdrimmie Wrote:
(04-18-2020, 10:05 AM)ijmorlan Wrote: The other thing about tip inflation that is irritating is that because the amount is already a percentage, inflation is automatically taken into account. Where does it stop? 33% tip? 40%? 50%?

You assume that minimum wages is indexed on something that tracks inflation. That's only the case in 7 provinces and territories [1] now, and in 17 states as of 2018 [2]. Tip inflation is the way that restaurant staff start approaching living wages. It's irritating to us because we are consumers trained by a capitalist society to devalue labour and to dislike paying the full cost of the services and products we consume.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage_in_Canada
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wa...n_indexing

That assumes food prices track inflation, not that the minimum wage does. If the price of food doubles, a 15% tip also doubles.
Reply
#43
(04-18-2020, 11:16 AM)robdrimmie Wrote:
(04-18-2020, 10:05 AM)ijmorlan Wrote: The other thing about tip inflation that is irritating is that because the amount is already a percentage, inflation is automatically taken into account. Where does it stop? 33% tip? 40%? 50%?

You assume that minimum wages is indexed on something that tracks inflation. That's only the case in 7 provinces and territories [1] now, and in 17 states as of 2018 [2]. Tip inflation is the way that restaurant staff start approaching living wages. It's irritating to us because we are consumers trained by a capitalist society to devalue labour and to dislike paying the full cost of the services and products we consume.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage_in_Canada
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wa...n_indexing

I would rather pay a higher price for the food (and a proper living wage for the restaurant staff) and do away with tipping altogether. It works that way in many countries, and it could work that way here, too.
Reply


#44
(04-18-2020, 12:46 PM)jwilliamson Wrote:
(04-18-2020, 11:16 AM)robdrimmie Wrote: You assume that minimum wages is indexed on something that tracks inflation. That's only the case in 7 provinces and territories [1] now, and in 17 states as of 2018 [2]. Tip inflation is the way that restaurant staff start approaching living wages. It's irritating to us because we are consumers trained by a capitalist society to devalue labour and to dislike paying the full cost of the services and products we consume.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage_in_Canada
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wa...n_indexing

That assumes food prices track inflation, not that the minimum wage does. If the price of food doubles, a 15% tip also doubles.

That's an excellent point, thank you for raising it. It's still my contention that tip inflation is a result of wages not tracking inflation but I'll do better sourcing.
Reply
#45
(04-18-2020, 12:51 PM)tomh009 Wrote: I would rather pay a higher price for the food (and a proper living wage for the restaurant staff) and do away with tipping altogether. It works that way in many countries, and it could work that way here, too.

Yes, I very strongly agree. I'm not arguing that tip inflation is a good thing, only presenting a possible explanation for it. I need to do more research to support it and present it all more clearly though.
Reply
« Next Oldest | Next Newest »



Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)

About Waterloo Region Connected

Launched in August 2014, Waterloo Region Connected is an online community that brings together all the things that make Waterloo Region great. Waterloo Region Connected provides user-driven content fueled by a lively discussion forum covering topics like urban development, transportation projects, heritage issues, businesses and other issues of interest to those in Kitchener, Waterloo, Cambridge and the four Townships - North Dumfries, Wellesley, Wilmot, and Woolwich.

              User Links