General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours

[neonjoe]

Make king street a pedestrian European like square/ mall... Cafes and shops.  No cars.

Agreed

It really should have been a transit mall with LRT right up the middle, instead of the split.

[danbrotherston]

It should be, but that ship has already sailed.

And hey, I agree with Rainrider22...what a day to be alive.

FWIW...in 2019 CoK staff were moving towards this idea, unfortunately the pandemic utterly derailed everything. (Including sending regional staff to Copenhagen).

I'm not sure though...would I rather Jubilee be made car free before or after King St.

Edit: Alternate universe musings...Park St. could have easily been connected to Schneider and on to Mill instead of Courtland. It would serve basically the same traffic function, and go to the same place (eventually) but how would it have changed our city if it was. Would Mill, Carwood, Vanier, and Manitou all be continuous again? Would sprawl be worse or better or unchanged? Would the Park be improved or worsened?

[Rainrider22]

It should be, but that ship has already sailed.

And hey, I agree with Rainrider22...what a day to be alive.

FWIW...in 2019 CoK staff were moving towards this idea, unfortunately the pandemic utterly derailed everything. (Including sending regional staff to Copenhagen).

I'm not sure though...would I rather Jubilee be made car free before or after King St.

Edit: Alternate universe musings...Park St. could have easily been connected to Schneider and on to Mill instead of Courtland. It would serve basically the same traffic function, and go to the same place (eventually) but how would it have changed our city if it was. Would Mill, Carwood, Vanier, and Manitou all be continuous again? Would sprawl be worse or better or unchanged? Would the Park be improved or worsened?

HAHAH,  yes...

Imagine if they had nice cobblestone street, and then have Gaukel street join king all the way to Victoria park with no cars...  Beautiful walkable area. Just watch how fast the foot traffic would increase.  And with all the new Condo towers coming on line, IN8 still has 2 more big towers coming close to Gaukel... I can see an incredible transformation. Highly desirable area to live then./

[SF22]

It should be, but that ship has already sailed.

And hey, I agree with Rainrider22...what a day to be alive.

FWIW...in 2019 CoK staff were moving towards this idea, unfortunately the pandemic utterly derailed everything. (Including sending regional staff to Copenhagen).

I'm not sure though...would I rather Jubilee be made car free before or after King St.

Edit: Alternate universe musings...Park St. could have easily been connected to Schneider and on to Mill instead of Courtland. It would serve basically the same traffic function, and go to the same place (eventually) but how would it have changed our city if it was. Would Mill, Carwood, Vanier, and Manitou all be continuous again? Would sprawl be worse or better or unchanged? Would the Park be improved or worsened?

HAHAH,  yes...

Imagine if they had nice cobblestone street, and then have Gaukel street join king all the way to Victoria park with no cars...  Beautiful walkable area. Just watch how fast the foot traffic would increase.  And with all the new Condo towers coming on line, IN8 still has 2 more big towers coming close to Gaukel... I can see an incredible transformation. Highly desirable area to live then./

This would be a dream! I would love to see a parcel of land 20-30 feet wide on the left side of the Charles St Terminal property sectioned off and made into a 'courtyard' space that runs the length between Charles and Joseph, as an extension of a pedestrian-only Gaukel. There would be space for lots of trees, benches, a playground, tables to sit under the shade with a good lunch you bought from a restaurant around the corner. Besides providing more space to people, I think it would make Gaukel feel less like a 'street' and more like a plaza.

[ac3r]

Make king street a pedestrian European like square/ mall... Cafes and shops.  No cars.

It would be nice. And they had plans for that in the 20th century.

When Market Square was being constructed, they planned to enclose all of King Street in a shelter and have it pedestrian only. They scrapped that idea, though. Probably for the best since Market Square was terrible.

They also pedestrianized King Street it one summer. Not sure what year it was, maybe the 1950s or so. It was partially open to buses I believe (I can't recall). There was a video floating around a while back but it has unfortunately vanished from the internet, but it looked great. They had huge planters and benches set up. People were out and enjoying the weather, going in and out of different stores (when downtown actually had more to offer than weed and take out food).

They could still pull it off today and there have been plenty of studies that have looked into it. We just have yet to take the leap of faith and try it.

[dtkvictim]

Anyone interested in less cars downtown (and more space for pedestrians and bikes) should make sure the BIA and its members are firmly on their radar. I have multiple insights into the DTK BIA, and what many of them push for is no different than what you hear from other BIAs in other cities that oppose basically everything this forum stands for.

[panamaniac]

Make king street a pedestrian European like square/ mall... Cafes and shops.  No cars.

It would be nice. And they had plans for that in the 20th century.

When Market Square was being constructed, they planned to enclose all of King Street in a shelter and have it pedestrian only. They scrapped that idea, though. Probably for the best since Market Square was terrible.

They also pedestrianized King Street it one summer. Not sure what year it was, maybe the 1950s or so. It was partially open to buses I believe (I can't recall). There was a video floating around a while back but it has unfortunately vanished from the internet, but it looked great. They had huge planters and benches set up. People were out and enjoying the weather, going in and out of different stores (when downtown actually had more to offer than weed and take out food).

They could still pull it off today and there have been plenty of studies that have looked into it. We just have yet to take the leap of faith and try it.

King St was turned into a temporary pedestrian mall for a number of years in the 1970s.  I can’t recall why it was discontinued.

[panamaniac]

It should be, but that ship has already sailed.

And hey, I agree with Rainrider22...what a day to be alive.

FWIW...in 2019 CoK staff were moving towards this idea, unfortunately the pandemic utterly derailed everything. (Including sending regional staff to Copenhagen).

I'm not sure though...would I rather Jubilee be made car free before or after King St.

Edit: Alternate universe musings...Park St. could have easily been connected to Schneider and on to Mill instead of Courtland. It would serve basically the same traffic function, and go to the same place (eventually) but how would it have changed our city if it was. Would Mill, Carwood, Vanier, and Manitou all be continuous again? Would sprawl be worse or better or unchanged? Would the Park be improved or worsened?

HAHAH,  yes...

Imagine if they had nice cobblestone street, and then have Gaukel street join king all the way to Victoria park with no cars...  Beautiful walkable area. Just watch how fast the foot traffic would increase.  And with all the new Condo towers coming on line, IN8 still has 2 more big towers coming close to Gaukel... I can see an incredible transformation. Highly desirable area to live then./

A good vision - for Hall’s Lane.

[bravado]

I still think of this pedestrian mall in Denver - with transit buses going down the centre on the paving stones. It was delightful and would fit King St so well.

[jeffster]

It should be, but that ship has already sailed.

And hey, I agree with Rainrider22...what a day to be alive.

FWIW...in 2019 CoK staff were moving towards this idea, unfortunately the pandemic utterly derailed everything. (Including sending regional staff to Copenhagen).

I'm not sure though...would I rather Jubilee be made car free before or after King St.

Edit: Alternate universe musings...Park St. could have easily been connected to Schneider and on to Mill instead of Courtland. It would serve basically the same traffic function, and go to the same place (eventually) but how would it have changed our city if it was. Would Mill, Carwood, Vanier, and Manitou all be continuous again? Would sprawl be worse or better or unchanged? Would the Park be improved or worsened?

It should be King for pedestrian mall, between Francis and Benton - could we go back to 1-way roads for Charles and Duke?

As for Jubilee, I'll be honest and say I don't use that road a lot, but when I do, I don't see too many alternatives.

[Rainrider22]

I still think of this pedestrian mall in Denver - with transit buses going down the centre on the paving stones. It was delightful and would fit King St so well.

That's amazing,  that's exactly what we need.  less the busses. We don't need the busses..

[danbrotherston]

It should be, but that ship has already sailed.

And hey, I agree with Rainrider22...what a day to be alive.

FWIW...in 2019 CoK staff were moving towards this idea, unfortunately the pandemic utterly derailed everything. (Including sending regional staff to Copenhagen).

I'm not sure though...would I rather Jubilee be made car free before or after King St.

Edit: Alternate universe musings...Park St. could have easily been connected to Schneider and on to Mill instead of Courtland. It would serve basically the same traffic function, and go to the same place (eventually) but how would it have changed our city if it was. Would Mill, Carwood, Vanier, and Manitou all be continuous again? Would sprawl be worse or better or unchanged? Would the Park be improved or worsened?

It should be King for pedestrian mall, between Francis and Benton - could we go back to 1-way roads for Charles and Duke?

As for Jubilee, I'll be honest and say I don't use that road a lot, but when I do, I don't see too many alternatives.

Plenty of alternatives:

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/43.44611...cf!1m0!3e0

(Via Charles St.)

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/43.44631...29!1m0!3e0

(Via West St.)

No, they're not direct, but the only reason this is perceived as "indirect" is because the road in the park exists right now. It is equally inconvenient for me to have to drive around the park coming from the west. If Highland went straight and cut through the park into Water St. that would be very convenient to me as a driver. Because it doesn't you don't even think about it.

Removing Jubilee is totally feasible. Traffic patterns would change, but they would still function. Courtland and Park would see less traffic because they are more inconvenient, other roads would see a little more, and a few people would choose not to make a trip or use a different mode. But we'd all move on.

As for Duke and Charles...well...probably not. Worst case would be converting them into two lane one way roads to carry more traffic. Bad for the city. One lane one way roads are possible, if we use the extra space for something useful (like a bike lane). But the region is unwilling to do so on Duke because it would involve rerouting their buses. We know this because regional and city staff are currently having a staring contest for this very issue for the downtown grid. That being said, it might be a benefit if cars went the opposite way from buses from a safety perspective...or maybe drivers really are suicidal in the face of the LRV.

FWIW on the Grid I think it was a mistake to go up Duke. City staff should have anticipated the region being an impossible obstacle here, and should have preferred to put it on Weber. Narrowing Weber to 3 lanes through DTK would have been a little harder politically, but possible, which Duke appears to not be.

[danbrotherston]

I still think of this pedestrian mall in Denver - with transit buses going down the centre on the paving stones. It was delightful and would fit King St so well.

That's amazing,  that's exactly what we need.  less the busses. We don't need the busses..

Are there buses on King St. now? I can't remember.

FWIW I think Arnhem has buses through it's pedestrianized core (when we there in 2016 anyway...it was Arnhem or Nijmegen). I would lose them I think, it is pretty disruptive and means you must reserve a significant empty space. It also isn't particularly conducive to cycling. The pedestrian street in Amersfoort prohibits cycling during shopping hours, not that cycling is particularly feasible in the crowds.

There are many North American examples of this though...several in Montreal, Spark St. in Ottawa, 8th Ave in Calgary. And those are only the ones I've actually visited.

Frankly, places which don't have it almost stand out more...KW, London, Byward Market in Ottawa, Pikes Place in Seattle, Granville Island in Vancouver...these places are clearly plain as day suited to have car free streets, and yet politicians push back and squirm against it despite the clear logic of it, and proven model even in North America (or even in the same city!). It really makes you wonder who is really pulling the strings? Do the minority of angry drivers really have that much influence? Why are mayors like Cam Guthrie and John Bauters seemingly not affected by this, and how can we get them to run our city?

[taylortbb]

Anyone interested in less cars downtown (and more space for pedestrians and bikes) should make sure the BIA and its members are firmly on their radar. I have multiple insights into the DTK BIA, and what many of them push for is no different than what you hear from other BIAs in other cities that oppose basically everything this forum stands for.

It really makes you wonder who is really pulling the strings? Do the minority of angry drivers really have that much influence?

dtkvictim is completely right here. It's not angry car drivers, it's the existing business owners in DTK that most fiercely oppose these sorts of changes.

Small business owners are largely a very conservative bunch. Their entire wealth if often tied up in the business, and any change represents risk. Right now things work for them, they make money. A car free King St? Maybe it would bring more people and make them more money, but it also might make their business less successful, and no one wants to risk their entire wealth.

Honestly, many of the businesses aren't poised to take advantage of increasing foot traffic. It would likely increase rents, which would mean the businesses would need to do more volume. For a lot of DTK restaurants that might work, they're good desirable places and can hire more staff, but there's also DTK retailers that I'd probably describe as hanging on out of pure stubbornness. More foot traffic won't change that their products aren't that desirable, and the increase in rents will push them out of business. They're not wrong that a busier DTK is bad for them. I don't think they should get to hold the downtown core of the city hostage to their own demands, but the city is obviously loathe to do anything that the BIA doesn't support.

[danbrotherston]

Anyone interested in less cars downtown (and more space for pedestrians and bikes) should make sure the BIA and its members are firmly on their radar. I have multiple insights into the DTK BIA, and what many of them push for is no different than what you hear from other BIAs in other cities that oppose basically everything this forum stands for.

It really makes you wonder who is really pulling the strings? Do the minority of angry drivers really have that much influence?

dtkvictim is completely right here. It's not angry car drivers, it's the existing business owners in DTK that most fiercely oppose these sorts of changes.

Small business owners are largely a very conservative bunch. Their entire wealth if often tied up in the business, and any change represents risk. Right now things work for them, they make money. A car free King St? Maybe it would bring more people and make them more money, but it also might make their business less successful, and no one wants to risk their entire wealth.

Honestly, many of the businesses aren't poised to take advantage of increasing foot traffic. It would likely increase rents, which would mean the businesses would need to do more volume. For a lot of DTK restaurants that might work, they're good desirable places and can hire more staff, but there's also DTK retailers that I'd probably describe as hanging on out of pure stubbornness. More foot traffic won't change that their products aren't that desirable, and the increase in rents will push them out of business. They're not wrong that a busier DTK is bad for them. I don't think they should get to hold the downtown core of the city hostage to their own demands, but the city is obviously loathe to do anything that the BIA doesn't support.

Fair point...

It was business owners who killed the Ontario section of the Downtown Grid, something that NIMBYs on the other side of King couldn't achieve.