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General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours
(05-31-2020, 01:43 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:
(05-31-2020, 01:24 PM)tomh009 Wrote: Well ... not quite stuck in your apartment, I would argue. I have gone for early-morning walks every single day during the pandemic, and the urban streets are quiet, I just occasionally need to cross the street to avoid someone walking a dog etc. Even parks and the IHT are not bad early, but city streets are even quieter.

This works well in KW, but my friends in Toronto will point out that things are different in Toronto. A friend of mine lives near St. Clair and Avenue Rd. and there is virtually no time of the day when they can leave their homes and walk up the sidewalk without failing to physically distance much of the time.

KW is in a better situation, but I still don't think the fact that one *can* go for a walk at 7 AM on a Sunday negates the fact that at 3 PM on a weekend, there is not enough space for everyone who wants to be out in a public space.

Has Victoria Park been open to walkers throughout the shutdown?  Cities missed a bet, istm, by not allowing walkers to use municipal golf courses while they were closed.  Rockway woulld have been a relatively convenient additional amentiy for many folks in Kitchener.
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(05-31-2020, 02:01 PM)panamaniac Wrote:
(05-31-2020, 01:43 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: This works well in KW, but my friends in Toronto will point out that things are different in Toronto. A friend of mine lives near St. Clair and Avenue Rd. and there is virtually no time of the day when they can leave their homes and walk up the sidewalk without failing to physically distance much of the time.

KW is in a better situation, but I still don't think the fact that one *can* go for a walk at 7 AM on a Sunday negates the fact that at 3 PM on a weekend, there is not enough space for everyone who wants to be out in a public space.

Has Victoria Park been open to walkers throughout the shutdown?  Cities missed a bet, istm, by not allowing walkers to use municipal golf courses while they were closed.  Rockway woulld have been a relatively convenient additional amentiy for many folks in Kitchener.

Vic park has been open, but it gets really full, and the paths and bridges are all too narrow. I think it could have been better if they'd closed Jubilee Dr. to cars and opened it to people.

Opening the golf course is certainly an idea I'd support, but I do think there are issues with that, they're not localed in dense areas, meaning people have to travel to them, out of ones neighbourhood, and I'm sure there are security issues and transition issues (golf courses are open now of course).
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(05-31-2020, 02:14 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: Opening the golf course is certainly an idea I'd support, but I do think there are issues with that, they're not localed in dense areas, meaning people have to travel to them, out of ones neighbourhood, and I'm sure there are security issues and transition issues (golf courses are open now of course).

They don’t have to be. City-owned golf courses are for the benefit of the citizens of the City; if a greater benefit can be had by opening them for walking than by opening them for golfing, then they should be for walking.
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(05-31-2020, 02:32 PM)ijmorlan Wrote:
(05-31-2020, 02:14 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: Opening the golf course is certainly an idea I'd support, but I do think there are issues with that, they're not localed in dense areas, meaning people have to travel to them, out of ones neighbourhood, and I'm sure there are security issues and transition issues (golf courses are open now of course).

They don’t have to be. City-owned golf courses are for the benefit of the citizens of the City; if a greater benefit can be had by opening them for walking than by opening them for golfing, then they should be for walking.

I'm not saying I disagree, but it's not fair to say it's as simple as just opening them for walking while they were closed for golf.
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(05-31-2020, 02:53 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:
(05-31-2020, 02:32 PM)ijmorlan Wrote: They don’t have to be. City-owned golf courses are for the benefit of the citizens of the City; if a greater benefit can be had by opening them for walking than by opening them for golfing, then they should be for walking.

I'm not saying I disagree, but it's not fair to say it's as simple as just opening them for walking while they were closed for golf.

Why?
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(05-31-2020, 02:53 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:
(05-31-2020, 02:32 PM)ijmorlan Wrote: They don’t have to be. City-owned golf courses are for the benefit of the citizens of the City; if a greater benefit can be had by opening them for walking than by opening them for golfing, then they should be for walking.

I'm not saying I disagree, but it's not fair to say it's as simple as just opening them for walking while they were closed for golf.

My point is that the fact that they are now open for golfing is irrelevant. If the walking is a higher public benefit (total value for the citizens of the City), then that is what they should be used for.
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(05-31-2020, 03:53 PM)ijmorlan Wrote:
(05-31-2020, 02:53 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: I'm not saying I disagree, but it's not fair to say it's as simple as just opening them for walking while they were closed for golf.

My point is that the fact that they are now open for golfing is irrelevant. If the walking is a higher public benefit (total value for the citizens of the City), then that is what they should be used for.
If the City thought like that, Rockway would have become a park years ago (nice to think about ...).
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(05-31-2020, 03:53 PM)ijmorlan Wrote:
(05-31-2020, 02:53 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: I'm not saying I disagree, but it's not fair to say it's as simple as just opening them for walking while they were closed for golf.

My point is that the fact that they are now open for golfing is irrelevant. If the walking is a higher public benefit (total value for the citizens of the City), then that is what they should be used for.

I'm not disagreeing with that point, but converting the courses into a more general public space is a separate issue, with a far higher level of public discourse required, than simply repurposing a temporarily unused space for walking while it is unused. One is a serious discussion about public spaces in the city, the other sounds like a quick win....BUT

(05-31-2020, 03:34 PM)panamaniac Wrote:
(05-31-2020, 02:53 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: I'm not saying I disagree, but it's not fair to say it's as simple as just opening them for walking while they were closed for golf.

Why?

I don't think it is so quick. I've never been on our courses, but there's a lot of landscaping, and a lot of equipment, and a lot of liability issues. Equipment would need to be removed or secured, large numbers of people walking on the course especially on the greens will cause damage that would need to be repaired before reopening, and when reopening, there would need to be precautions that people who previously walked there do not continue walking there, because there is a liability to people unknowingly walking onto a golf course.

I'm not saying that they shouldn't have done it, just that it isn't so immediately simple.

I'd rather see a real discussion about what to do with the golf course, but I also have no doubt there would be a large wealthy segment of the population who would strongly oppose that.
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(05-31-2020, 05:15 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:
(05-31-2020, 03:53 PM)ijmorlan Wrote: My point is that the fact that they are now open for golfing is irrelevant. If the walking is a higher public benefit (total value for the citizens of the City), then that is what they should be used for.

I'm not disagreeing with that point, but converting the courses into a more general public space is a separate issue, with a far higher level of public discourse required, than simply repurposing a temporarily unused space for walking while it is unused. One is a serious discussion about public spaces in the city, the other sounds like a quick win....BUT

(05-31-2020, 03:34 PM)panamaniac Wrote: Why?

I don't think it is so quick. I've never been on our courses, but there's a lot of landscaping, and a lot of equipment, and a lot of liability issues. Equipment would need to be removed or secured, large numbers of people walking on the course especially on the greens will cause damage that would need to be repaired before reopening, and when reopening, there would need to be precautions that people who previously walked there do not continue walking there, because there is a liability to people unknowingly walking onto a golf course.

I'm not saying that they shouldn't have done it, just that it isn't so immediately simple.

I'd rather see a real discussion about what to do with the golf course, but I also have no doubt there would be a large wealthy segment of the population who would strongly oppose that.

Nothing that couldn’t be sorted in a one hour conference call, istm.  (30 years in govt bureaucracy, here).

If it were up to me, the original Rockway course would be turned into an arboretum, with the extension sold off for high density development.
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What is your definition of wealthy people? A large portion of the golfers on city courses are just average people of all income levels. A lot of seniors golf at Rockway. The wealthy people golf at Westmount and Deer Ridge which are both private.
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(05-31-2020, 01:43 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:
(05-31-2020, 01:24 PM)tomh009 Wrote: Well ... not quite stuck in your apartment, I would argue. I have gone for early-morning walks every single day during the pandemic, and the urban streets are quiet, I just occasionally need to cross the street to avoid someone walking a dog etc. Even parks and the IHT are not bad early, but city streets are even quieter.

This works well in KW, but my friends in Toronto will point out that things are different in Toronto. A friend of mine lives near St. Clair and Avenue Rd. and there is virtually no time of the day when they can leave their homes and walk up the sidewalk without failing to physically distance much of the time.

KW is in a better situation, but I still don't think the fact that one *can* go for a walk at 7 AM on a Sunday negates the fact that at 3 PM on a weekend, there is not enough space for everyone who wants to be out in a public space.

Valid points, both. But the second is mitigated by the individual's ability to choose the time. I interpreted Jamincan's comment as people being stuck in their apartments 24/7. I could have been mistaken, though.
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(05-31-2020, 02:14 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:
(05-31-2020, 02:01 PM)panamaniac Wrote: Has Victoria Park been open to walkers throughout the shutdown?  Cities missed a bet, istm, by not allowing walkers to use municipal golf courses while they were closed.  Rockway woulld have been a relatively convenient additional amentiy for many folks in Kitchener.

Vic park has been open, but it gets really full, and the paths and bridges are all too narrow. I think it could have been better if they'd closed Jubilee Dr. to cars and opened it to people.

Opening the golf course is certainly an idea I'd support, but I do think there are issues with that, they're not localed in dense areas, meaning people have to travel to them, out of ones neighbourhood, and I'm sure there are security issues and transition issues (golf courses are open now of course).

Victoria Park bridges are indeed narrow for the most part (I occasionally need to wait for other people to cross) but the paths are not too bad if you're willing to step on the grass when meeting other people.

Rockway is a 20-minute walk (for people who are reasonably fit) from DTK.
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(05-31-2020, 08:37 PM)tomh009 Wrote:
(05-31-2020, 01:43 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: This works well in KW, but my friends in Toronto will point out that things are different in Toronto. A friend of mine lives near St. Clair and Avenue Rd. and there is virtually no time of the day when they can leave their homes and walk up the sidewalk without failing to physically distance much of the time.

KW is in a better situation, but I still don't think the fact that one *can* go for a walk at 7 AM on a Sunday negates the fact that at 3 PM on a weekend, there is not enough space for everyone who wants to be out in a public space.

Valid points, both. But the second is mitigated by the individual's ability to choose the time. I interpreted Jamincan's comment as people being stuck in their apartments 24/7. I could have been mistaken, though.

Some people have a greater ability to choose the time than others. I can definitely envision someone who has, say, young children not being able to properly distance outside during the times when he or she can go outside, and as a result staying in the apartment for days on end.

That having been said, I doubt that case exists often in KW. There really does seem to be enough space, even green space, for everyone to get out and get some exercise.
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(05-31-2020, 08:39 PM)tomh009 Wrote: Victoria Park bridges are indeed narrow for the most part (I occasionally need to wait for other people to cross) but the paths are not too bad if you're willing to step on the grass when meeting other people.

I'm not sure what it is, but Victoria Park seems to attract a greater number of people who don't care about cooperating. Victoria park area is the only place where people seem happy to stop in pathway intersections to have a conversation blocking people coming from all directions. Or just not making any effort to share the pathways with people coming from the opposite direction. Not that everyone at the park is doing this, but I've only experienced it at the park, so I just stick to residential neighbourhoods for my walks now.

(05-31-2020, 10:24 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: But you really hit the nail on the head, the key is having common public spaces available.

The massive crowds in the parks are not a result of too much density or crowding, but of too little public space. If Toronto had instead opened half the roads downtown to the public for pedestrians (and closed them to cars), I doubt you would see the crowds that you do. This is a self inflicted situation.

That would certainly ease some of the pressure on parks, but streets are not green space. Streets can be used for exercise, but as far as I'm concerned, green space is just as important as exercise for mental well being.
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(05-31-2020, 08:39 PM)tomh009 Wrote:
(05-31-2020, 02:14 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: Vic park has been open, but it gets really full, and the paths and bridges are all too narrow. I think it could have been better if they'd closed Jubilee Dr. to cars and opened it to people.

Opening the golf course is certainly an idea I'd support, but I do think there are issues with that, they're not localed in dense areas, meaning people have to travel to them, out of ones neighbourhood, and I'm sure there are security issues and transition issues (golf courses are open now of course).

Victoria Park bridges are indeed narrow for the most part (I occasionally need to wait for other people to cross) but the paths are not too bad if you're willing to step on the grass when meeting other people.

Rockway is a 20-minute walk (for people who are reasonably fit) from DTK.

Google shows Rockway to be a 30 minute walk from Queen where I live, and that's right in the middle.  And Google maps directions generally for a pretty fast walker.  I don't really want to walk 30 minutes to the golf course, just to turn around and hoof it home...walking longer than an hour is probably not typical for most people. I suspect from DTK, most people would drive to rockway (or bus or bike) and not walk.

As for Vic park, the paths are narrow, but often have groups of people on them, it's hard for a family of four (with kids) to get off the path. And when the park is busy you have many of these groups every half dozen meters. Basically when it's busy, you can't really socially distance, although I wouldn't exactly call it busy or packed.
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