Restricting Right Turns on Red

[panamaniac]

One assumes that those folks who keep turning in front of ION trains are the sort who only look straight ahead.

[dtkvictim]

One assumes that those folks who keep turning in front of ION trains are the sort who only look straight ahead.

But then the far-side mounted turn restriction signs should be best for them! According to the logic in this thread anyways (I actually think near-side mounted turn restrictions could be nice if placed well and consistently).

I feel like there is a lot of dreaming up imaginary drivers that rarely actually exist going on in this thread, possibly from people who haven't been a passenger in a vehicle in decades or from people who haven't driven. All while ignoring recent trends that align with the clear decline in order on the road such as rampant cell phone usage, delivery app workers breaking rules just to make a pittance, and driving multiculturalism.

[MacBerry]

To do it (or anything region wide) rather than on a case by case basis would be foolish. I certainly hope it's not the case.

Not sure what the discussion and status  of this issue is but any change such as no right turn Region wide would require provincial approval. IMO this would not be approved.

[MacBerry]

To do it (or anything region wide) rather than on a case by case basis would be foolish. I certainly hope it's not the case.

[ijmorlan]

To do it (or anything region wide) rather than on a case by case basis would be foolish. I certainly hope it's not the case.

Not sure what the discussion and status  of this issue is but any change such as no right turn Region wide would require provincial approval. IMO this would not be approved.

I don’t see why the Region couldn’t make and sign every single signalized intersection as “no right on red”.

That being said, I think the decision should be made case by case. There are many intersections where it’s hard to see a problem with it. If there is good visibility aided by the geometry of the intersection I don’t see why turning right on a red after checking for pedestrians on the intersecting street is inherently any more problematic than turning right on a green after checking for pedestrians on the initial street.

[SammyOES]

I don’t see why turning right on a red after checking for pedestrians on the intersecting street is inherently any more problematic than turning right on a green after checking for pedestrians on the initial street.

It is worse because on a red light drivers end up focusing to their left knowing that’s where traffic is going to come from. It’s easy to forget to check back to your right for pedestrians/bikes when you see a gap in traffic to your left and just start moving.

On a green light you’ve got the right away so you just need a glance to the straight/left to make sure nobody is doing anything stupid and then you can focus mostly on the forward path of your car and anybody that’s in your way.

Red light turns also seem more rushed in a lot of cases.

All that to be said, I definitely get how they’re worse. But it would be really silly to me to get rid of them region wide because there are a ton of places where they help move traffic at basically no increased danger to pedestrians.

[ac3r]

When did turning at a red when there are no pedestrians or other traffic problems...become a problem? Or are we just trying to make it one because kAAArrrRRrzz!!!!?

[dtkvictim]

When did turning at a red when there are no pedestrians or other traffic problems...become a problem? Or are we just trying to make it one because kAAArrrRRrzz!!!!?

You've got it backwards - it's a problem because of the huge number of people turning right on red as though there are no pedestrians, when there are.

Even taking pedestrians out of the equation, right on red also causes a signification portion of collisions between motor vehicles.

It's banned in most of the developed world for a reason, including in the many places you frequently tout at being so much better than here.

[bravado]

When did turning at a red when there are no pedestrians or other traffic problems...become a problem? Or are we just trying to make it one because kAAArrrRRrzz!!!!?

What has happened to you in 2025 to make you so bitter? Are we watching someone self-radicalize in front of us?

[creative]

I was stopped at a red light recently. Stopped behind the line, checked both directions. Crept forward into the pedestrian crossing and stopped again. Checked to my left and was ready to proceed when I checked right one more time, just as a pedestrian stepped into the crossing inches from my bumper. I had not previously seen them. Luckily I’m a careful driver. A large number of drivers would not have been as cautious and most likely would have hit them.

[neonjoe]

I was stopped at a red light recently. Stopped behind the line, checked both directions. Crept forward into the pedestrian crossing and stopped again. Checked to my left and was ready to proceed when  I checked right one more time, just as a pedestrian stepped into the crossing inches from my bumper. I had not previously seen them. Luckily I’m a careful driver. A large number of drivers would not have been as cautious and most likely would have hit them.

Defensive driving is about looking constantly at your surroundings. This should be the norm, but unfortunately it is not. This is one of the reasons why I am in favour of the change (event though I am a car enthusiast, but I cycle too). Too many drivers are robots and only look at the light or do not look at their surroundings, too many are distracted and have no awareness of what is around them. At least training them to completely wait by a red light instead of blasting through it, turning right, may cut down on some incidents.
Nonetheless, it seems like about 30-40% of the time when I exit the highway at Fischer-Hallman from 7-8 WB the cars in the far right lane do not adhere to the no right on red sign, if it becomes universal perhaps the adherence may increase.

[danbrotherston]

Not sure what the discussion and status  of this issue is but any change such as no right turn Region wide would require provincial approval. IMO this would not be approved.

I don’t see why the Region couldn’t make and sign every single signalized intersection as “no right on red”.

That being said, I think the decision should be made case by case. There are many intersections where it’s hard to see a problem with it. If there is good visibility aided by the geometry of the intersection I don’t see why turning right on a red after checking for pedestrians on the intersecting street is inherently any more problematic than turning right on a green after checking for pedestrians on the initial street.

The reason is simple, when you have the green, you proceed with a right turn immediately. When you have the red you have to wait an indeterminate amount of time while looking left for a space in traffic. When there is a space you then have to check right again for pedestrians who might have approached while you were waiting. But most drivers don’t do this, they simply go because they are under pressure to fit in the space in traffic. This is so prevalent that pedestrians know to be wary of drivers in that position.

[ijmorlan]

I don’t understand the statement that “On a green light you’ve got the right away” (I think “right of way” is meant?), or that “you proceed with a right turn immediately”. Before making a right turn on green, one has to check for pedestrians travelling on the same street one is turning from.

I do see that drivers making a right turn on green have less to worry about from other vehicles so if the point is that they will be primarily focussed on pedestrians rather than on finding their place to enter car traffic, then I can see that point. That being said, I think the geometry still affects the situation. If the intersection is laid out such that (big enough) I can treat the pedestrian crossing as a crosswalk, then stop after it to check for vehicles on the other street, then I have trouble seeing what is wrong with proceeding. This is intersection-specific of course.

[danbrotherston]

I don’t understand the statement that “On a green light you’ve got the right away” (I think “right of way” is meant?), or that “you proceed with a right turn immediately”. Before making a right turn on green, one has to check for pedestrians travelling on the same street one is turning from.

I do see that drivers making a right turn on green have less to worry about from other vehicles so if the point is that they will be primarily focussed on pedestrians rather than on finding their place to enter car traffic, then I can see that point. That being said, I think the geometry still affects the situation. If the intersection is laid out such that (big enough) I can treat the pedestrian crossing as a crosswalk, then stop after it to check for vehicles on the other street, then I have trouble seeing what is wrong with proceeding. This is intersection-specific of course.

I assume it is the second meaning.



I see what you mean by drivers also having to check for pedestrians when turning right on green, and it is absolutely true that drivers do not do so, it's why the leading pedestrian interval is a safety feature (of course the real solution is to use smarter traffic signals like the Netherlands which separate pedestrians from turning drivers with a dedicated signal). But I think it is not just the focus, but the time. A driver turning right on green will look for pedestrians immediately before they turn. A driver turning right on red, often looks for pedestrians earlier, and then may wait an appreciable amount of time before turning.



You are right however, that this can also be improved with geometry. The Netherlands does this at unsignalized intersections where right turns are permitted, there will be enough space between the crosswalk/crossride and the roadway in order to allow a car to stop outside the crossing, but before the roadway. And bike paths are often pushed back from the road at intersections to give more space for this (imagine that....North America often does the opposite).



I think think this works less well in Canada and the US though, and it comes down to roadway markings and driver behaviour. Dutch road markings will paint the give way markings directly along the roadway edge line. This indicates clearly to the driver where they must stay back from in order to stay out of the roadway. Canadian intersections don't have this, the only stop bar is the one preceding the crosswalk. More, Canada and the US just have much bigger vehicles. In fact, when Dutch drivers drive giant pickup trucks, they often block the crossings while waiting to turn. And finally, I think we can all understand the instinct drivers will have to stay far back from the high speed cross traffic while waiting to turn, especially when there are no markings denoting the safe waiting zone.