Charles St GRT terminal redevelopment

[ac3r]

How can the general public influence or have any say in advocating for retail in the new transit hub?

We already tried, they basically said "lol nope".

[Bytor]

Maybe we need to try again, while they ate stuck for funding.

Back in Fall 2019 we manage to get Regional council to approve all three GRT expansion plans. The pandemic ruined that, but we need to bring back that same full-court press for those expansions and include the retail in the central terminal idea.

[ac3r]

The retail doesn’t have to be inside. I don’t think there is anything about the north side of Victoria between King and Duke that makes it any worse than any other block in downtown for street-facing retail.

In all actuality, it would likely do better outside or at least with outside facing entrances (with interior as well, naturally). My wish for retail has a lot to do with my time living in Germany where I have a home, but thinking about it again...their train stations have more traffic, so indoor retail fares better. Most stations in any city/region with at least...400'000k has what is referred to as "einkaufsbahnhof" - a compound word that translates to something like train station shopping centre (but literally, something like train station point of purchase). They can often be shopping mall sized retail areas, even in modestly sized cities of like...400k.

We wouldn't have that here despite Waterloo Region having 630k people, but at the very least it could support a couple of shops. Having them outside would probably be a huge benefit too. Central Station doesn't have much handy retail nearby. There's a coffee shop across the street...and a place to rent U-hauls. 2-4 little retail spaces with outdoor access could be a real benefit to the area, even if it was something like crappy fast food, a convenience store or whatever else. Entirely outdoor or partial outdoor+indoor acess would be great because even with a lack of passengers in the station per day, outdoor access could at least help draw in revenue for the businesses.

But, this is Waterloo Region. Pretty much zero chance of anything good like this happening, so we'll get this expensive train station that few people set foot in apart from waiting for a train or one of a very few number of buses that will connect here.

[ijmorlan]

But, this is Waterloo Region. Pretty much zero chance of anything good like this happening, so we'll get this expensive train station that few people set foot in apart from waiting for a train or one of a very few number of buses that will connect here.

Agreed, sadly.

Ironically, we could conceivably have a situation where a block that would be developed with lots of commercial and have lots of foot traffic if the tracks weren’t there will instead be developed with no commercial and see very little foot traffic — basically just passengers.

[panamaniac]

The lots of commercial and foot traffic will be on the other side of King St, no?

[ijmorlan]

The lots of commercial and foot traffic will be on the other side of King St, no?

That depends on how it is developed. If the central station block were to be developed with a massive residential tower with office space in the lowest 10 stories and commercial at ground level, then that block would I think see significant foot traffic.

If instead they build essentially a glorified bus shelter, then it will see only passenger traffic, nowhere near as much.

[tomh009]

In all actuality, it would likely do better outside or at least with outside facing entrances (with interior as well, naturally). My wish for retail has a lot to do with my time living in Germany where I have a home, but thinking about it again...their train stations have more traffic, so indoor retail fares better. Most stations in any city/region with at least...400'000k has what is referred to as "einkaufsbahnhof" - a compound word that translates to something like train station shopping centre (but literally, something like train station point of purchase). They can often be shopping mall sized retail areas, even in modestly sized cities of like...400k.

We wouldn't have that here despite Waterloo Region having 630k people, but at the very least it could support a couple of shops. Having them outside would probably be a huge benefit too. Central Station doesn't have much handy retail nearby. There's a coffee shop across the street...and a place to rent U-hauls. 2-4 little retail spaces with outdoor access could be a real benefit to the area, even if it was something like crappy fast food, a convenience store or whatever else. Entirely outdoor or partial outdoor+indoor acess would be great because even with a lack of passengers in the station per day, outdoor access could at least help draw in revenue for the businesses.

Those train stations in Germany will have lots of arriving and departing trains. At best, we'll have a GO once an hour. So, indoor shopping makes far less sense than outdoor, in our case.

Round Table (coffee), Dispensary (coffee) -- and Smile Tiger Coffee just N of the current station, at Ahrens St. And this is before some opens up in the Station Park complex. So, coffee in particular isn't in critically short supply.

[Bytor]

In all actuality, it would likely do better outside or at least with outside facing entrances (with interior as well, naturally). My wish for retail has a lot to do with my time living in Germany where I have a home, but thinking about it again...their train stations have more traffic, so indoor retail fares better. Most stations in any city/region with at least...400'000k has what is referred to as "einkaufsbahnhof" - a compound word that translates to something like train station shopping centre (but literally, something like train station point of purchase). They can often be shopping mall sized retail areas, even in modestly sized cities of like...400k.

We wouldn't have that here despite Waterloo Region having 630k people, but at the very least it could support a couple of shops. Having them outside would probably be a huge benefit too. Central Station doesn't have much handy retail nearby. There's a coffee shop across the street...and a place to rent U-hauls. 2-4 little retail spaces with outdoor access could be a real benefit to the area, even if it was something like crappy fast food, a convenience store or whatever else. Entirely outdoor or partial outdoor+indoor acess would be great because even with a lack of passengers in the station per day, outdoor access could at least help draw in revenue for the businesses.

Those train stations in Germany will have lots of arriving and departing trains. At best, we'll have a GO once an hour. So, indoor shopping makes far less sense than outdoor, in our case.

Round Table (coffee), Dispensary (coffee) -- and Smile Tiger Coffee just N of the current station, at Ahrens St. And this is before some opens up in the Station Park complex. So, coffee in particular isn't in critically short supply.

We'll also have ION LRT trams every 10 minutes and several busses that often, too, so more than what the Charles St terminal had, and Transfers was pretty well used.

The Region likes to bill itself as a forward looking community, but in reality they are timid, unwilling, and sometimes even hostile to anything that s not CarCulture™.

[tomh009]

Those train stations in Germany will have lots of arriving and departing trains. At best, we'll have a GO once an hour. So, indoor shopping makes far less sense than outdoor, in our case.

Round Table (coffee), Dispensary (coffee) -- and Smile Tiger Coffee just N of the current station, at Ahrens St. And this is before some opens up in the Station Park complex. So, coffee in particular isn't in critically short supply.

We'll also have ION LRT trams every 10 minutes and several busses that often, too, so more than what the Charles St terminal had, and Transfers was pretty well used.

The LRT stops will be outside the station, though, so that actually supports my suggestion of having outside-facing retail.

[dtkvictim]

Let's put a McDonalds drive-thru in the bus loop.

[danbrotherston]

Those train stations in Germany will have lots of arriving and departing trains. At best, we'll have a GO once an hour. So, indoor shopping makes far less sense than outdoor, in our case.

Round Table (coffee), Dispensary (coffee) -- and Smile Tiger Coffee just N of the current station, at Ahrens St. And this is before some opens up in the Station Park complex. So, coffee in particular isn't in critically short supply.

We'll also have ION LRT trams every 10 minutes and several busses that often, too, so more than what the Charles St terminal had, and Transfers was pretty well used.

The Region likes to bill itself as a forward looking community, but in reality they are timid, unwilling, and sometimes even hostile to anything that s not CarCulture™.

It is?

Charles Terminal had express buses plus way way more bus routes. I'm fairly certain Charles Terminal had far far more transit vehicle movements than the new station ever will have...and that's also reflected in the station capacity.

In any case, Tom is right, that only supports the idea that retail should be located on the outside...which is absolutely a given--malls die downtown.

[ijmorlan]

In any case, Tom is right, that only supports the idea that retail should be located on the outside...which is absolutely a given--malls die downtown.

Not true in Europe, from what I understand, e.g.:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galeries_R...int-Hubert

I suspect, however, that the key is that the mall needs to be on the way to other places, not something one has to seek out. This would also explain why the sidewalks on King St., for example, are desireable retail locations: they’re on the way.

By contrast, the King Centre (or whatever it was called), was a dead-end off King St. if I remember correctly: if you went in the front door, you were coming back out the same door later on. The same layout would have had trouble attracting visitors if it had been a dead-end laneway off King St. rather than an enclosed mall. Or so I suppose.

At our train station, as you say most of the traffic will be outside, so it probably makes sense to design the retail more or less as if there wasn’t a train station. Quite different from a massive transit hub like Union Station which has immense traffic flows inside.

[danbrotherston]

In any case, Tom is right, that only supports the idea that retail should be located on the outside...which is absolutely a given--malls die downtown.

Not true in Europe, from what I understand, e.g.:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galeries_R...int-Hubert

I suspect, however, that the key is that the mall needs to be on the way to other places, not something one has to seek out. This would also explain why the sidewalks on King St., for example, are desireable retail locations: they’re on the way.

By contrast, the King Centre (or whatever it was called), was a dead-end off King St. if I remember correctly: if you went in the front door, you were coming back out the same door later on. The same layout would have had trouble attracting visitors if it had been a dead-end laneway off King St. rather than an enclosed mall. Or so I suppose.

At our train station, as you say most of the traffic will be outside, so it probably makes sense to design the retail more or less as if there wasn’t a train station. Quite different from a massive transit hub like Union Station which has immense traffic flows inside.

I mean, yes...I spoke over broadly. You don't even have to go to Europe to make the point, malls survive in downtown Toronto just fine.

I think you're partially right. I think the other factor is density of people. Toronto survives well with the PATH and the malls because it has so many people they can't help but fill all the retail spaces that are built. Same with European centres.

And you're right, malls won't pull people, they simply provide a place for people if they're there.

To me the biggest problem with malls like the ones in DTK are that they don't activate the street, they deaden the street, which means they actually drive people away.

I doubt the transit terminal would do that too much, but I think we all mostly agree retail should face out.

FWIW I do dream of a time when KW (or London, or any midsized Canadian city that isn't a tourist town) has an urban core attractive enough to people to expand beyond the streets.

[Jefferson]

I biked past this site on Tuesday and some drilling was happening. Likely for testing the soil.

[jeffster]

I biked past this site on Tuesday and some drilling was happening. Likely for testing the soil.

I won't be surprised if it is super contaminated. Not just from the busses, but likely from the previous operation that was there. I'm too young to remember what was there first.