General Road and Highway Discussion

[danbrotherston]

... or moves it from one place to another.

[ijmorlan]

I’m just gonna sneak in here and casually mention that adding more lanes doesn’t equal less congestion

Thanks, bye

True in general, but in some cases it does. To take an extreme example, imagine you have a six lane road, with a small section that is only two lanes. Obviously there will be massive backups ahead of the two lane section. Expanding that section to match the rest of the road will clear the backups.

Depending on where the road is and how it fits into the rest of the network, there may only be six lanes worth of traffic and the congestion may be permanently cleared. On the other hand, the fact that the whole road can now actually take the six lanes of traffic may induce demand so that it will eventually fill up. But given that the road has already been built to six lanes almost everywhere, that’s not necessarily a bad thing: it means the investment isn’t totally wasted.

Now obviously my example is an extreme case, and I can’t say whether the low-capacity ramp under discussion is like my example. But it’s certainly possible. It doesn’t make sense to have one ramp in an interchange under capacity compared to the rest of the interchange and the amount of traffic using that ramp.

So overall I tend to be in favour of making interchanges and intersections match the capacity of the roads they connect, but opposed to adding lanes to the roads between the intersections. In many cases I would even rather match capacities by removing lanes from the roads between the interchanges.

My favourite example is at the corner of Erb and Caroline, where the single right turn from Caroline onto Erb frequently jams up. The obvious thing to do is to change that to a two lane right turn. On the other hand, the fact that it’s not catastrophically backed up proves that the Erb/Bridgeport combination really only needs one through lane in each direction, which suggests a rather severe road diet all the way across the city. So I’d be OK with reducing both roads to a combined total of a single through lane in each direction, plus turn lanes so that turning vehicles don’t hold up the through lane.

[dtkvictim]

My favourite example is at the corner of Erb and Caroline, where the single right turn from Caroline onto Erb frequently jams up. The obvious thing to do is to change that to a two lane right turn. On the other hand, the fact that it’s not catastrophically backed up proves that the Erb/Bridgeport combination really only needs one through lane in each direction, which suggests a rather severe road diet all the way across the city. So I’d be OK with reducing both roads to a combined total of a single through lane in each direction, plus turn lanes so that turning vehicles don’t hold up the through lane.

I don't actually think this is a good example. The length of the backup could be cut in half with two lanes sure, but I'm not convinced you would increase the throughput. The issue is that the right turn conflicts with LRT at a point with particularly egregious signal timing or speed restrictions, and one of the busiest places in the region for walking and cycling. More turning lanes would still have to compete with those uses.

Might still be worth it regardless though if they can be given a dedicated signal phase and have that awful slip lane removed.

[ac3r]

Ban cars.

[dunkalunk]

A quick win would be to drop King to one lane south of Mongtomery/Dixon and convert the EB 7/8 -> SB/EB 8 ramp to 2 lanes that are the through lanes on 8 with King merging in from the left. The amount of traffic coming from downtown doesn't merit two through lanes.

Doesn't fix the NB-WB mess, but it would likely reduce /one/ of the issues.

I'm not sure if there's enough space on the 3/4 loop ramp to make it two lanes and not have transport trucks straddle those lanes. The main issue I see with the section of highway isn't necessarily that it's backed up, its the queuing in the third lane (Highway 7/8 Westbound Exit) while the leftmost lane (King St Exit) is still moving, resulting in a last-second merge. Short term, without widening, this could be made safer by closing the Westbound Weber St on-ramp to Highway 8 during rush hours and closing the King St Off-ramp completely.

There are many alternate options into downtown Kitchener. During the afternoon rush hour, I'm either getting off the highway at Weber St or taking the Highway 7 ramp and getting off at Ottawa St.

If any upgrades to the 7/8 interchange are made, it's likely the King St ramps would need to be closed during construction anyways.

[bravado]

Ban cars.

that's a little extreme, maybe we just start with acknowledging the existence of induced demand first

[timc]

I've noticed, in the opposite direction, that EB 7/8 to Hwy 8 is dangerous in the mornings. One time, a few months back, I tried to get on the highway at Courtland to drive to Waterloo. Merging at highway speed, to slow down to zero to merge into the line of cars waiting to exit, to then back up to >115 km/h to merge into the third lane made my life flash before my eyes. I won't make that mistake again.

[dunkalunk]

I've noticed, in the opposite direction, that EB 7/8 to Hwy 8 is dangerous in the mornings. One time, a few months back, I tried to get on the highway at Courtland to drive to Waterloo. Merging at highway speed, to slow down to zero to merge into the line of cars waiting to exit, to then back up to >115 km/h to merge into the third lane made my life flash before my eyes. I won't make that mistake again.

I'm not sure why the ramp lane from courtland disappears just to reappear again after the curve for the highway 8 eastbound ramp. Probably would need to acquire some homes on Shelley Pl to keep that lane in place.

[KevinL]

The Bleams extension from Manitou to Wilson is expected to open in July. The roundabout at Manitou will be reduced to one lane while that gets finalized. https://www.regionofwaterloo.ca/en/livin...-road.aspx

[tomh009]

I've noticed, in the opposite direction, that EB 7/8 to Hwy 8 is dangerous in the mornings. One time, a few months back, I tried to get on the highway at Courtland to drive to Waterloo. Merging at highway speed, to slow down to zero to merge into the line of cars waiting to exit, to then back up to >115 km/h to merge into the third lane made my life flash before my eyes. I won't make that mistake again.

I'm not sure why the ramp lane from courtland disappears just to reappear again after the curve for the highway 8 eastbound ramp. Probably would need to acquire some homes on Shelley Pl to keep that lane in place.

I'm pretty sure that's intentional, they don't want incoming cars to stay in that lane and accidentally end up in the exist lane.

[KevinL]

Ottawa Street is closed starting today, eastward of Westmount. It stretches to Mowat for now, but will likely phase eastward to Howland; and then on the west side to Pinedale, as work advances. The main focus will be the conversion of the intersection to a roundabout.

[ZEBuilder]

Ottawa Street is closed starting today, eastward of Westmount. It stretches to Mowat for now, but will likely phase eastward to Howland; and then on the west side to Pinedale, as work advances. The main focus will be the conversion of the intersection to a roundabout.

The second phase will also include the rebuild of the existing box culvert for Borden Creek. Originally everything from Fischer Hallman to Westmount was intended to be done in one go but the box culvert caused some issues hence the delay to this year.

[danbrotherston]

Ottawa Street is closed starting today, eastward of Westmount. It stretches to Mowat for now, but will likely phase eastward to Howland; and then on the west side to Pinedale, as work advances. The main focus will be the conversion of the intersection to a roundabout.

The second phase will also include the rebuild of the existing box culvert for Borden Creek. Originally everything from Fischer Hallman to Westmount was intended to be done in one go but the box culvert caused some issues hence the delay to this year.

Oh yes...because regional staff, when directed explicitly to prioritize the needs of pedestrians, cyclists, and transit OVER the needs of car drivers still cannot imagine doing anything but a massive 3 lane roundabout.

That meeting will stick in my mind forever. And I'm sure regional staff and consultants have long forgotten it, will be legitimately surprised when it doesn't work for pedestrians, despite being told this repeatedly. Pay a person enough and their reality can be whatever you want it to be.

[neonjoe]

This roundabout will definitely be a test ... There are a lot of pedestrians in the area as Chandler Mowat is quite dense and the Laurentian Hills Shopping Centre is their local destination for Groceries etc.
That intersection has always been dangerous, I lived in the area as a kid and you had to always be super aware of the left hand turners as they seemed to never pay attention to pedestrians, cyclists or even motorists. The have redone it numerous times, adding slip lanes, adding dedicated left turn lanes and more but its only become worse. Slip lanes are bad, but the left turn movements here from SB Westmount to EB Ottawa are the sketchiest.

[danbrotherston]

This roundabout will definitely be a test ... There are a lot of pedestrians in the area as Chandler Mowat is quite dense and the Laurentian Hills Shopping Centre is their local destination for Groceries etc.
That intersection has always been dangerous, I lived in the area as a kid and you had to always be super aware of the left hand turners as they seemed to never pay attention to pedestrians, cyclists or even motorists. The have redone it numerous times, adding slip lanes, adding dedicated left turn lanes and more but its only become worse. Slip lanes are bad, but the left turn movements here from SB Westmount to EB Ottawa are the sketchiest.

Yeah, definitely not saying that it's not bad the way it is, nor even that it's impossible that it could be better as a roundabout. But it's clear that the top priority (even as stated by staff themselves in the very same breath as they explained they were instructed to use a different prioritization) was traffic throughput. They explained the ONLY way to achieve the traffic LOS they wanted with the volume of traffic they project was by using a roundabout.

But even if they wanted to achieve all their goals, they could still do that, but it would have been much more expensive. We have similar infrastructure in the NLs, huge roundabouts, often multi-level where pedestrians are segregated from most or all of the traffic. At least then they'd have an honest discussion with council (and ATAC).

As it is, I expect the perception from pedestrians to be that this is worse, because it is different and also less clear. Whether the data also says it is actually worse, seems like it will be a toss-up. But the perception matters more than the reality. If pedestrians don't feel safe, they will be in cars...no matter how unaffordable that is for some people.