GO Transit

[Bytor]

To be honest, I had forgotten that a promise of 30 minute service had been made (is that true?); I thought the promise was for hourly service, and I’m not expecting anything better than every 2 hours for quite some time.

Kitchener line business case from November 2019.

Speed of operation is also an issue; with track improvements, the time between Kitchener and Guelph or Guelph and Georgetown should each be well under 30 minutes meaning that hourly service (but ignoring freight, which is unrealistic) should be achievable without twinning. Of course the closer the schedule gets to the theoretical maximum the worse the impact of any problems, but still we’re used to ridiculously slow operation on this line so distances seem to be of greater duration than they should be.

When Metrolinx was still acting like twinning the track all the way to Kitchener, then they were indicating that trackway remediation would be done to increase the speed limits. The "no we're not going to twin" that has come out since the Tories took over has been accompanied by a lack of talk about remediation.

[danbrotherston]

To be honest, I had forgotten that a promise of 30 minute service had been made (is that true?); I thought the promise was for hourly service, and I’m not expecting anything better than every 2 hours for quite some time.

Kitchener line business case from November 2019.

Speed of operation is also an issue; with track improvements, the time between Kitchener and Guelph or Guelph and Georgetown should each be well under 30 minutes meaning that hourly service (but ignoring freight, which is unrealistic) should be achievable without twinning. Of course the closer the schedule gets to the theoretical maximum the worse the impact of any problems, but still we’re used to ridiculously slow operation on this line so distances seem to be of greater duration than they should be.

When Metrolinx was still acting like twinning the track all the way to Kitchener, then they were indicating that trackway remediation would be done to increase the speed limits. The "no we're not going to twin" that has come out since the Tories took over has been accompanied by a lack of talk about remediation.

I believe they have been doing track improvements...there are a few corridors which are hard to fix, like right outside the Guelph station where it runs a few meters from homes, but other areas have been improved and we have seen a resulting improvement in travel times.

[tomh009]

I believe they have been doing track improvements...there are a few corridors which are hard to fix, like right outside the Guelph station where it runs a few meters from homes, but other areas have been improved and we have seen a resulting improvement in travel times.

Weren't they also working to eliminate some of the level crossings in Guelph? Or was that just my wishful thinking?

[timio]

I believe they have been doing track improvements...there are a few corridors which are hard to fix, like right outside the Guelph station where it runs a few meters from homes, but other areas have been improved and we have seen a resulting improvement in travel times.

Weren't they also working to eliminate some of the level crossings in Guelph? Or was that just my wishful thinking?

I believe Dublin Street was closed recently.

[ijmorlan]

Weren't they also working to eliminate some of the level crossings in Guelph? Or was that just my wishful thinking?

I believe Dublin Street was closed recently.

That’s unfortunate. It’s not needed for efficient train movement, and it is anti-pedestrian.

Allow me to explain, since the railway experts at Metrolinx seem to think it does need to be closed.

This location is less than 500m from the station. So even HSR could operate through here perfectly fine — I don’t know the exact speed, but trains simply don’t change speed that quickly. Next, the street is a minor street with not much traffic. So a fully protected grade crossing should provide vehicle and other traffic ample warning to stop for the trains.

That being said, closing it to vehicle traffic while keeping it open to pedestrians and bicyclists would simplify traffic flow somewhat without being anti-pedestrian; and for all I know the neighbourhood might appreciate the traffic diversion.

[innsertnamehere]

I believe they have been doing track improvements...there are a few corridors which are hard to fix, like right outside the Guelph station where it runs a few meters from homes, but other areas have been improved and we have seen a resulting improvement in travel times.

Weren't they also working to eliminate some of the level crossings in Guelph? Or was that just my wishful thinking?

I believe they recently increased the speeds through there from 10mph to 30mph. Or at least they were planning to.

[KevinL]

So CBC is talking about Cambridge-Guelph service, it seems the idea is a shuttle with dedicated smaller trains that would connect to Toronto service in Guelph.

I'm completely in favour of this so long as it maintains good connections; hooking it up to Ion service at Hespeler/Pinebush seems to be the idea, and I think having GO buses stop there as well could tie all that together. An intermediate stop on Guelph Ave just north of the river in Hespeler would also be a good move.

The trickiest part, I think, is Guelph station itself. It's being built with two tracks and platforms for through trains; this service would terminate. I suppose a third track and platform could be squeezed in just to the south, but it could get crowded with the Chamber of Commerce building.

Apparently more details are due in May.

[Bytor]

So CBC is talking about Cambridge-Guelph service, it seems the idea is a shuttle with dedicated smaller trains that would connect to Toronto service in Guelph.

I'm completely in favour of this so long as it maintains good connections; hooking it up to Ion service at Hespeler/Pinebush seems to be the idea, and I think having GO buses stop there as well could tie all that together. An intermediate stop on Guelph Ave just north of the river in Hespeler would also be a good move.

The trickiest part, I think, is Guelph station itself. It's being built with two tracks and platforms for through trains; this service would terminate. I suppose a third track and platform could be squeezed in just to the south, but it could get crowded with the Chamber of Commerce building.

Apparently more details are due in May.

Guelph Station is down in Galt, on the CP tracks Malcom and Water.

This article is talking about the CN Fergus Subdivision Which comes down from Guelph, goes under the 401, and then crosses Eagle near Concession. It then parallels the CP line from Kitchener (on witch the Toyota spur sits) down to the Jaffrey yard. ION Stage 2 proposes to use the spur that splits off by Industrial Rd.

Personally, I think a station should be roughed in at Speedsville Rd. where the abandoned line they want to use crosses it. The catchment area reaches all the way down to Langs Dr., and an LRT station that backs onto the parkland along the Speed River right there, with the Kin community & childrens centre, a public school and the seniors all with walking distance could be come quite the community node spurring redevelopment along Eagle and Concession.

[Bytor]

Also, I cannot really see this happening before 2035, or a few years after whenever ION Stage 2 gets built, and certainly not before 2025. This short-run service would be highly dependent upon both #2WADGO between Kitchener and Toronto and on good transit connection (a.k.a. LRT) to the Cambridge end and probably would not have enough passengers to make it economically viable until those two things are in place.

[danbrotherston]

Also, I cannot really see this happening before 2035, or a few years after whenever ION Stage 2 gets built, and certainly not before 2025. This short-run service would be highly dependent upon both #2WADGO between Kitchener and Toronto and on good transit connection (a.k.a. LRT) to the Cambridge end and probably would not have enough passengers to make it economically viable until those two things are in place.

I don't think it makes sense to do this in 2035.  If we're waiting 15 years, we should do the right thing and expand the Milton line. The only reason to re-activate the track and go through Guelph to my mind is to do it quickly.

[Bytor]

Also, I cannot really see this happening before 2035, or a few years after whenever ION Stage 2 gets built, and certainly not before 2025. This short-run service would be highly dependent upon both #2WADGO between Kitchener and Toronto and on good transit connection (a.k.a. LRT) to the Cambridge end and probably would not have enough passengers to make it economically viable until those two things are in place.

I don't think it makes sense to do this in 2035.  If we're waiting 15 years, we should do the right thing and expand the Milton line. The only reason to re-activate the track and go through Guelph to my mind is to do it quickly.

CP is orders of magnitude more obstinate than CN ever was with the Kitchener Line. If you want to wait for that, you'll be waiting far beyond 2035.

The Galt Subdivision is the only line CP has going west from Toronto where CN had 2, so no wonder CP doesn't want to sell it off. Doing so would split their North American network into two disconnected halves, or at the every least, force them to go up through the Dakotas and around Lake Superior to get anything from US midwest or southern Missiissippi River to anywhere east of Toronto.

The only workable solution there requires Metrolinx building brand new track, and a lot of land appropriation because th right of way is not always wide enough to add two more tracks on to. Though it's likely that CP would not allow sharing the ROW like that.

[danbrotherston]

I don't think it makes sense to do this in 2035.  If we're waiting 15 years, we should do the right thing and expand the Milton line. The only reason to re-activate the track and go through Guelph to my mind is to do it quickly.

CP is orders of magnitude more obstinate than CN ever was with the Kitchener Line. If you want to wait for that, you'll be waiting far beyond 2035.

The Galt Subdivision is the only line CP has going west from Toronto where CN had 2, so no wonder CP doesn't want to sell it off. Doing so would split their North American network into two disconnected halves, or at the every least, force them to go up through the Dakotas and around Lake Superior to get anything from US midwest or southern Missiissippi River to anywhere east of Toronto.

The only workable solution there requires Metrolinx building brand new track, and a lot of land appropriation because th right of way is not always wide enough to add two more tracks on to. Though it's likely that CP would not allow sharing the ROW like that.

If I recall the same right of way that was going to be used to bypass the CN line will also bypass the CP line. And I don't think CN will play ball with closing their main freight line either.

[Bytor]

CP is orders of magnitude more obstinate than CN ever was with the Kitchener Line. If you want to wait for that, you'll be waiting far beyond 2035.

The Galt Subdivision is the only line CP has going west from Toronto where CN had 2, so no wonder CP doesn't want to sell it off. Doing so would split their North American network into two disconnected halves, or at the every least, force them to go up through the Dakotas and around Lake Superior to get anything from US midwest or southern Missiissippi River to anywhere east of Toronto.

The only workable solution there requires Metrolinx building brand new track, and a lot of land appropriation because th right of way is not always wide enough to add two more tracks on to. Though it's likely that CP would not allow sharing the ROW like that.

If I recall the same right of way that was going to be used to bypass the CN line will also bypass the CP line. And I don't think CN will play ball with closing their main freight line either.

While there was some talk about the bypass only going as far as Meadowvale and having CN trains share the CP line to Milton, all the maps from the Province and Metrolinx always included the full distance of Bramalea Rd. to Milton. Early on as just a straight line meant to indicate general location, and later ones following a combination of the 407 and the hydro corridor beside it.

I do not believe there was any serious talk of  using it as a CP bypass to gain control of the Milton Line as that requires diverting CP traffic up to Woodbridge and down the CN tracks to Bramalea to get to the bypass. Given the freight volumes both those companies run through there, just doing that minimum distance of Bramalea to Meadowvale would probably be unworkable as the shared sections on either end wouldn't have the capacity to handle both sets of traffic.

[danbrotherston]

If I recall the same right of way that was going to be used to bypass the CN line will also bypass the CP line. And I don't think CN will play ball with closing their main freight line either.

While there was some talk about the bypass only going as far as Meadowvale and having CN trains share the CP line to Milton, all the maps from the Province and Metrolinx always included the full distance of Bramalea Rd. to Milton. Early on as just a straight line meant to indicate general location, and later ones following a combination of the 407 and the hydro corridor beside it.

I do not believe there was any serious talk of  using it as a CP bypass to gain control of the Milton Line as that requires diverting CP traffic up to Woodbridge and down the CN tracks to Bramalea to get to the bypass. Given the freight volumes both those companies run through there, just doing that minimum distance of Bramalea to Meadowvale would probably be unworkable as the shared sections on either end wouldn't have the capacity to handle both sets of traffic.

I'm not sure why they'd have to use the CN tracks.

The CN bypass would require tracks on the 401/7 from Hornby to Bramalea. If those tracks were extended east to Woodbridge long the 407 and west to Campbelleville they would meet the CP tracks at both ends. CN and CP could share the 407 freight corridor. Building that out would no doubt be more expensive but would also enable two rail corridors to come into full passenger usage, and the only sharing would be along the 401/7 corridor, which should have plenty of right of way.

This kind of thing should be a priority if lack of capacity really is the problem on Milton and Kitchener.

[KevinL]

GO has announced that construction in downtown Kitchener has led to them moving the Charles and King/Victoria bus stops to new places on Weber. In a way, this is the final death of the Charles terminal as a location for intercity service.

GO Bus Route 25 will follow a different route in downtown Kitchener and some stops will be moved due to upcoming road construction projects in the area.

In downtown Kitchener, buses will run along Weber St. The stops on Victoria St. @ King St., Joseph St. @ Ontario St., Charles St. @ Queen St., and King St. @ Montgomery Rd. will be removed and relocated to Weber St., and will be an approximate five-to-ten minute walk from the stops being removed.
Route 25 will no longer serve the on-street stop near the Kitchener Bus Terminal. The replacement stop is located on Weber St. @ Queen St.