ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit

[ijmorlan]

I'd be surprised if they weren't also de-energizing the overhead catenary system (OCS) on the shared segment when the freight train is on the line. This would affect a much larger block of track, and you wouldn't want any LRVs to be sitting cold and dark (or warm and dark in summer) on an un-powered section with passengers on board.

Interesting point. That certainly could be true. On one level it’s a bit weird — how does it work where freight trains are electric? — but on another I can see it being done.

If that is an issue, then it might be helpful to break up that part of the OCS system into smaller segments. Not sure how complicated that would be.

[danbrotherston]

I'd be surprised if they weren't also de-energizing the overhead catenary system (OCS) on the shared segment when the freight train is on the line. This would affect a much larger block of track, and you wouldn't want any LRVs to be sitting cold and dark (or warm and dark in summer) on an un-powered section with passengers on board.

Interesting point. That certainly could be true. On one level it’s a bit weird — how does it work where freight trains are electric? — but on another I can see it being done.

If that is an issue, then it might be helpful to break up that part of the OCS system into smaller segments. Not sure how complicated that would be.

Are there any electric freight in N/A? Certainly there is none in Canada. I think we're all aware that our railroad regs are terribly obsolete compared with other places, so it makes sense that those places have better regs in this context as well.

That being said, I'm not sure breaking it up would help any, I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear that they require both directions to be unpowered before freight proceeds.

[Bob_McBob]

As another example, February 18 was a real doozy too. While the freight train went up the spur line there were four LRVs waiting for it over a half hour period.

Northbound, 514 was held at Waterloo Public Square from 11:30 to 11:50, and 508 was held behind it at Allen from 11:43 to 11:52.

Southbound, 513 was held at Waterloo Park from 11:37 to 11:47, and 502 was held at Northfield from 11:45 until midnight.

From this I think we can deduce they are only closing off parts of the line, but ION traffic is stopped both ways in the dead sections. In this case none of the LRVs managed to make up the time, and it messed up the schedule for the rest of the night. There were two more nights in February with four LRVs involved (February 5 and 6), and February 20 would also have involved four if one of them hadn't just scooted past in time. CN has only run 8 freight trains so far in February, and half of them caused system-wide scheduling issues in addition to the ridiculous delays. The northbound trip at Waterloo Public Square always gets the worst of it: February's delays were 17:26, 19:30, 14:34, 10:35, 9:49, 10:26, 19:18, and 14:57.

[ijmorlan]

Are there any electric freight in N/A? Certainly there is none in Canada. I think we're all aware that our railroad regs are terribly obsolete compared with other places, so it makes sense that those places have better regs in this context as well.

That being said, I'm not sure breaking it up would help any, I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear that they require both directions to be unpowered before freight proceeds.

As far as I know, you are right about electric freight in North America. I will say that I suspect there probably is some oddball system somewhere, but basically none.

As to the unpowered in both directions, the freight definitely passes a stopped LRV at Seagram station on the other track. To me it would be bizarre if the trains could pass only if the LRV were motionless, but who knows.

[ijmorlan]

And of course if things continue as they have been, we will never get a substantive comment or discussion on what their current policies are or what they could consider doing instead. Just crickets.

[KevinT]

Southbound, 513 was held at Waterloo Park from 11:37 to 11:47, and 502 was held at Northfield from 11:45 until midnight.

That's interesting, as the freight uses the southbound track from the Perimeter Institute to just south of Northfield. That Southbound train holding at Laurier - Waterloo Park would have to be reverse running on the northbound track. I really need to take some time to tune into the radio scanner for this and head up the line to catch this ballet in action.

[Bob_McBob]

It looks like 511 is holding at Waterloo Public Square right now, and Monday seems to be the most consistent day of the week for CN. Anything on the scanner?

Edit: Listening right now and they're talking about "cancelling the freight route" due to a "hiccup" so I was right!

Edit 2: Control just confirmed the freight service was cancelled and authorized 511 to proceed, ending up 11:25 behind schedule. Unfortunately I didn't hear much of anything else since they didn't actually run the train.

Edit 3: 511's operator was instructed to do a "quick turnaround" at Conestoga to minimize the continuing delay caused by the hold.

[danbrotherston]

It looks like 511 is holding at Waterloo Public Square right now, and Monday seems to be the most consistent day of the week for CN. Anything on the scanner?

Edit: Listening right now and they're talking about "cancelling the freight route" due to a "hiccup" so I was right!

Edit 2: Control just confirmed the freight service was cancelled and authorized 511 to proceed, ending up 11:25 behind schedule. Unfortunately I didn't hear much of anything else since they didn't actually run the train.

Edit 3: 511's operator was instructed to do a "quick turnaround" at Conestoga to minimize the continuing delay caused by the hold.

Sorry, let me make sure I understand this. Are you saying we suffered an 11 minute delay, even though CN never ran a freight train at all?

That is absurd.

[jason897]

Sounds like at the above time they were trying to send CN through but had some glitch with the derail on the line. Heard right now on the scanner they’re holding 504 at Waterloo Public Square to try again

[Bob_McBob]

Yep, that's exactly what happened. They later sent someone over to check the derail, and Control is now holding 504 at Waterloo Public Square while CN proceeds. There are no more southbound trips from Conestoga tonight so I won't get to hear them coordinate that.

[taylortbb]

Southbound, 513 was held at Waterloo Park from 11:37 to 11:47, and 502 was held at Northfield from 11:45 until midnight.

That's interesting, as the freight uses the southbound track from the Perimeter Institute to just south of Northfield. That Southbound train holding at Laurier - Waterloo Park would have to be reverse running on the northbound track. I really need to take some time to tune into the radio scanner for this and head up the line to catch this ballet in action.

There have definitely been some posts on social media about people have a reverse running ION trip. I never heard that they had to be stopped while freight goes through, but I guess that's not surprising.

The original system design had three tracks, with the freight one having a crash wall separating it from the LRV tracks. Basically Transport Canada wants LRVs to be safe even if a freight train derails, and they're not rated for that kind of impact. Perhaps they use the station as a pseudo crash wall, providing isolation between LRV and freight.

[Bob_McBob]

504 has been holding for 13 minutes and the CN train apparently still hasn't shown up.

Edit: We're up to 18 minutes now, and 507 has been held at Allen for the last 6 minutes.

Edit 2: And 504 was finally cleared to proceed after a little over 20 minutes, followed shortly by 507. Control never really mentions the location of the CN train.

Edit 3: Around 12:56 near R&T Park, 504 seemed to ask Control about catching up to the freight train, and whether to dwell. Control told him to "pass at 20km/h". Unfortunately someone here started talking really loudly at this point so I'm not sure whether I heard everything properly

[danbrotherston]

504 has been holding for 13 minutes and the CN train apparently still hasn't shown up.

Edit: We're up to 18 minutes now, and 507 has been held at Allen for the last 6 minutes.

Edit 2: And 504 was finally cleared to proceed after a little over 20 minutes, followed shortly by 507. Control never really mentions the location of the CN train.

Is there a possibility that they don't actually know?

[danbrotherston]

Sounds like at the above time they were trying to send CN through but had some glitch with the derail on the line. Heard right now on the scanner they’re holding 504 at Waterloo Public Square to try again

Fair enough, that's different.

[ac3r]

The region owns the spur line and has complete control over scheduling. CN has to wait for authorization from the control centre at the derail every time they run a train. I don't know what specific rules are being followed in terms of LRVs sharing the line with freight. The way they do it right now, 2-3 nights a week the freight train essentially eliminates a scheduled ION trip at a random time between 11pm and midnight.

I had heard about these delays in passing from ION riders, and I finally took the time to check it out on TransSee. On one particularly bad night (Jan 16), 504 was held at Waterloo Public Square for 25 minutes, which meant 510 had to be held at Allen and also ended up 15 minutes late. These delays are slowly made up all the way to Conestoga and back to Fairway because they're so long, but on this night even that wasn't enough, and it really messed up the schedule. Sometimes Fairway-bound LRVs are held at Waterloo Park while the freight train is on the line, but they're released before the Conestoga-bound LRV so it doesn't seem like the freight train has to completely clear Northfield before ION traffic resumes.

I don't know what is a reasonable solution here. I doubt CN would be willing to work within the limited time ION is out of service (~2am to 4:30am), especially if it meant running the train back and forth on subsequent nights. Integrating the train into the schedule would require CN to follow an actual fixed schedule, but right now they basically send a train whenever they feel like it. It seems like they try to keep the LRVs held at Waterloo Public Square for 15 minutes or less so it at least doesn't affect the next trip, but the random nature of CN's scheduling means you simply cannot rely on ION for connections at this time of night, and that is really unacceptable.

I had no idea the region owned the tracks there. Do they own the entire stretch, from where it leaves the mainline all the way up to Elmira?

Since they own it then, they probably could force CN to reschedule their trip if they wanted, but I feel like they would give them some leeway simply because if they are needing these tank cars with chemicals in their yard to be added to a train on the mainline, they'll need to get them there.