Restricting Right Turns on Red

[danbrotherston]

I don’t understand the statement that “On a green light you’ve got the right away” (I think “right of way” is meant?), or that “you proceed with a right turn immediately”. Before making a right turn on green, one has to check for pedestrians travelling on the same street one is turning from.

I do see that drivers making a right turn on green have less to worry about from other vehicles so if the point is that they will be primarily focussed on pedestrians rather than on finding their place to enter car traffic, then I can see that point. That being said, I think the geometry still affects the situation. If the intersection is laid out such that (big enough) I can treat the pedestrian crossing as a crosswalk, then stop after it to check for vehicles on the other street, then I have trouble seeing what is wrong with proceeding. This is intersection-specific of course.

I assume it is the second meaning.



I see what you mean by drivers also having to check for pedestrians when turning right on green, and it is absolutely true that drivers do not do so, it's why the leading pedestrian interval is a safety feature (of course the real solution is to use smarter traffic signals like the Netherlands which separate pedestrians from turning drivers with a dedicated signal). But I think it is not just the focus, but the time. A driver turning right on green will look for pedestrians immediately before they turn. A driver turning right on red, often looks for pedestrians earlier, and then may wait an appreciable amount of time before turning.



You are right however, that this can also be improved with geometry. The Netherlands does this at unsignalized intersections where right turns are permitted, there will be enough space between the crosswalk/crossride and the roadway in order to allow a car to stop outside the crossing, but before the roadway. And bike paths are often pushed back from the road at intersections to give more space for this (imagine that....North America often does the opposite).



I think think this works less well in Canada and the US though, and it comes down to roadway markings and driver behaviour. Dutch road markings will paint the give way markings directly along the roadway edge line. This indicates clearly to the driver where they must stay back from in order to stay out of the roadway. Canadian intersections don't have this, the only stop bar is the one preceding the crosswalk. More, Canada and the US just have much bigger vehicles. In fact, when Dutch drivers drive giant pickup trucks, they often block the crossings while waiting to turn. And finally, I think we can all understand the instinct drivers will have to stay far back from the high speed cross traffic while waiting to turn, especially when there are no markings denoting the safe waiting zone.