General Road and Highway Discussion

[Bytor]

They announced at the Franklin roundabout meeting last month that the new standard for crossings are 12m away from the circle vs 6m today.

I’m annoyed that non-drivers are yet again punished with longer trips because cars can’t stop killing people, and yet here we are.

Not just longer trips but, but greater risk of being hit by a car, and by a car going faster, with it double the distance away.

[danbrotherston]

They announced at the Franklin roundabout meeting last month that the new standard for crossings are 12m away from the circle vs 6m today.

I’m annoyed that non-drivers are yet again punished with longer trips because cars can’t stop killing people, and yet here we are.

Lol...they're also wrong...like they'll explain the 12 meter standard using all the right statements--that there needs to be enough room for a vehicle to stop outside the circle to not block traffic, but to wait for people crossing--and while we all like to joke about oversized SUVs...even the largest vehicles in Canada are not 12 meters long.

Ahh...sometimes I miss going to those meeting...it was fun to have to care about technical details...

[danbrotherston]

Ottawa Street in Kitchener to undergo $10M worth of construction upgrades

Two-way traffic will be reduced to one lane in each direction on Ottawa Street this year, from Fischer-Hallman Road to Pinedale Drive, with more than $10 million worth of construction slated to get underway next month.
The work on Ottawa Street extending to Mowat Boulevard will be done over two years, with the street closed to traffic, from Pinedale Drive to Westmount Road, for replacement of the culvert at Borden Creek in 2025.
Upgrades include a new roundabout at the Westmount Road intersection (traffic will be maintained at the intersection during construction), as well as multi-use trails on both side of Ottawa Street.


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This is good news. Ottawa from Westmount to Fischer-Hallman is in terrible shape. I was wondering when they were going to rebuild it.

But it's a Regional project and the RMoW doesn't have an equivalent to Kitchener's Complete Streets guidelines, so we won't get good pedestrian safety features like raised crosswalks as got put in on Highland E.

Nah...it's fine...the region has finally seen the light and been willing to give pedestrians and cyclists *checks notes* some paint.

[the_conestoga_guy]

Finally tracked down the construction drawings:

https://icreate7.esolutionsgroup.ca/1111...awings.pdf

Some extra things that weren't mentioned earlier:

• New bus queue jump lanes on Ottawa at Fischer-Hallman
  
• Full 2 lane roundabout at Westmount & Ottawa
  
• Bonus right turn slip lane for Westmount South-bound
  
• Drawings continue past Mowat to the Zehrs plaza entrance
  

[KevinL]

That's a huge PDF, my laptop struggled with it a bit.

Interesting to see how bus stops will shift with the changes at both the F-H and Westmount intersections. Also some property takings and other adjustments.

[timc]

It's all the more frustrating because the answer is so simple, just move the pedestrian crossings slightly away from the intersections and maybe add some flashing pedestrian crossing signs and all is well, but no, that's far too much work to figure out.

I don't think there is one answer to the roundabout dilemma. But tightening the angles for vehicles would be the one that I would be looking at. The roundabouts we have are designed to keep vehicles moving as quickly as possible, which creates extra danger for pedestrians. Moving the crossings back gives drivers exiting the roundabout more acceleration room before they hit the crossing.

[ac3r]

The ideal solution would be to just make pedestrian tunnels underneath them, rather than try to alter the roundabout design. That would allow traffic to continue at relatively useful speed whilst protecting pedestrians.

Alas, that would cost money and we don't like to spend that if we don't have to.

[danbrotherston]

It's all the more frustrating because the answer is so simple, just move the pedestrian crossings slightly away from the intersections and maybe add some flashing pedestrian crossing signs and all is well, but no, that's far too much work to figure out.

I don't think there is one answer to the roundabout dilemma. But tightening the angles for vehicles would be the one that I would be looking at. The roundabouts we have are designed to keep vehicles moving as quickly as possible, which creates extra danger for pedestrians. Moving the crossings back gives drivers exiting the roundabout more acceleration room before they hit the crossing.

Indeed, in fact this "simple" answer is very anti-pedestrian, although I'm sure that's not what Bjays93 intended.

Moving the crosswalks further out from the roundabout makes it more dangerous for pedestrians because drivers are moving faster, it is also more inconvenient because now you must walk further, and also increases the chances that pedestrians won't cross at the crossing.

There isn't one answer, in the Netherlands, even on relatively major arterial roads (yes even four lane roads) most roundabouts have level crossings but they have a large number of design features that make the VASTLY safer than the roundabouts in Canada. However all of these features amount to prioritising safety over the smooth flowing of cars.

I wrote about it in detail here: https://thecutstack.substack.com/p/round...-they-dont

What I learned when this roundabout was discussed was that roundabouts are a useful tool for traffic planners because they increase the traffic flow in their traffic models. They are easy to sell for traffic engineers because they can improve safety, but it is VERY MUCH a non-goal for the engineers involved.

Now yes, some Dutch roundabouts have overpasses, but this is not really the norm. And at least in the city I'm in, more common is to actually use vehicle underpasses so that some or much of the traffic can bypass the circle. At least two major roundabouts here have the straight through movement for the arterial road bypassed in a tunnel. But I think this comes back to the Dutch engineering practice of unrolling things...

[Thenewsroom99]

Coming from downtown. But I forgot, with the Avalon Pl bridge going in it will make the Laurentian trail accessible without going through any of the roundabouts or on busy roads.

I remember on ATAC they discussed the intersection of Ottawa and Westmount. What a surreal meeting. The consultant told us (and I am not paraphrasing here) that council made a very unusual ask of them, that council asked them to prioritize pedestrians, cyclists, and transit riders OVER that of motor vehicles. They felt this was wild and unprecedented. They then proceeded to explain, without a hint of irony, how they were going to install a traffic circle in order to meet the needs of projected traffic flow. I asked them, but you know this traffic circle is worse for pedestrians and cyclists, and they explained that they had no choice because it was needed for traffic.

I have never had a conversation more literally close to this parody from Chuck Marohn https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9BUyWVg1xI

I live in the area of Westmount and Ottawa and a lot of neighbours around me are very upset about the roundabout. For the most part, everyone agrees that Ottawa from Westmount to Fischer-Hallman is in rough shape and needs to be rebuilt. But, given how dense the area is with pedestrians and people who are relying on cycling and transit to get around, it really does feel like the Region once again prioritized vehicles and traffic throughput over the safety of everyone else. 

The original traffic study (if one was done, I can't find the results) would be from 2018/2019 when the project was first proposed and the PCC was held. 

https://icreate7.esolutionsgroup.ca/1111...ackage.pdf

Did the Project Team consider improvements to the existing signalized intersection of Ottawa Street and Westmount Road? Why was a roundabout selected instead? The existing signalized intersection is a significant traffic bottleneck with severe levels of congestion and queues at various times of day. The Project Team considered several signalized intersection improvement concepts, ranging from minor geometric improvements to major expansions. A traffic analysis of various alternatives indicated that even with a major expansion of the intersection, the underlying system bottlenecks would prevent any meaningful improvement in the performance of the intersection. Additionally, pedestrian crossing distances and transfer distances for GRT users would increase substantially. In contrast, a detailed traffic analysis indicated that the intersection performance could be increased substantially through implementation of a two-lane roundabout.

If the data is 5+ years old, I'd say that a lot has changed since then.

I also reached out to Jason, the Project Manager for the project and asked if enhanced safety features would be introduced at Ottawa/Westmount given the number of pedestrians in the area, two busy plazas, two schools, etc. My email was forwarded to someone on the Engineering team who sent me a standard, boilerplate response and did not address my questions:

Currently there are plans to install flashing lights at four existing roundabout crossings, which may help pedestrians cross, but studies will have to be undertaken on their effectiveness before they are implemented at all crossings.  The Highway Traffic Act (HTA) will also be have to be updated Provincially before things can be finalized.

Please note that the Region has installed Level 2 Pedestrian Crossovers, Type D, which constitute regulatory signs and pavement markings, at all roundabouts on both the approach and leaving legs at all roundabouts within the Region.  Motorists are required by law to stop for pedestrians when they are crossing the roundabout. 

If motorists are not stopping at a location, please contact the Waterloo Regional Police Service to consider enforcement of the signs via the following link:

https://www.wrps.on.ca/en/services-repor...ting-.aspx

I've reached out to my local Regional Counsellors but I doubt anything will change.

[ac3r]

The suggestion to call the police to suggest they enforce the law is ridiculous. Just design better roads.

[SammyOES]

The suggestion to call the police to suggest they enforce the law is ridiculous. Just design better roads.

Yeah, that’s just plain ridiculous. The police will straight up tell Council that they can’t stop things like local speeding, running stop signs, etc. because they’d need to park a full time police officer at every location to have any hope of actually making a difference.

[the_conestoga_guy]

New project up on the EngageWR website:
https://www.engagewr.ca/victoria-street-modifications

"The Region of Waterloo is looking to make modifications to Victoria Street in Kitchener near the future Kitchener Central Transit Hub."

"This project is focused on Victoria Street North (Regional Road 55) from King Street West (Regional Road 15) to Weber Street West (Regional Road 8)."

Their preferred design alternative is illustrated on slide 47:
https://ehq-production-canada.s3.ca-cent...5f6afb4534

[the_conestoga_guy]

New project up on the EngageWR website:
https://www.engagewr.ca/victoria-street-modifications

"The Region of Waterloo is looking to make modifications to Victoria Street in Kitchener near the future Kitchener Central Transit Hub."

"This project is focused on Victoria Street North (Regional Road 55) from King Street West (Regional Road 15) to Weber Street West (Regional Road 8)."

Their preferred design alternative is illustrated on slide 47:
https://ehq-production-canada.s3.ca-cent...5f6afb4534

One small thing I noticed from their proposed design is that it omits the driveway entrance to the proposed parking lot (present homeless encampment) at the corner of Weber. It was originally shown in the latest available drawings of the transit hub.

https://ehq-production-canada.s3.ca-cent...bc2b0ee5e6

I assume that the Region's recent acquisition of the neighbouring property has allowed them to either redesign the parking lot, or to abandon the lot idea completely.

[Bytor]

It's all the more frustrating because the answer is so simple, just move the pedestrian crossings slightly away from the intersections

The solution is to move the crosswalks farther away so the vehicles are either removing faster after leaving the roundabout or have yet to slow down as much on approach, so the driver is less able to spot a a pedestrian in the crosswalk and then hits them with that much more force, increasing the chance of serious injury or death, which hits 50% at 50km/h?

How is that the simple answer?!?

[bravado]

Hell might be freezing over but Doug Craig wants another pedestrian bridge across the Grand and it's a solid idea:

https://www.therecord.com/news/waterloo-...20a22.html

A second pedestrian crossing over the Grand River is being considered for Cambridge, with safety concerns associated with the CN train bridge behind Galt Collegiate Institute at the forefront.
“There’s always been an issue with the tracks to GCI and with students and with the public, even to this day, using that bridge to cross over,” said regional Coun. Doug Craig.
“It’s very unsafe, that’s the first issue, and we need a direct linkage across the river from the west side for students and people that want to walk the trail on the other side,” he said.
“It’s also just as important for people on the east side to get over to the Riverbluffs Park and all the trails, the canoe club and facilities they have there. I think it’s an important linkage that we need to work on.”

Craig, who represents Cambridge, brought the matter up last week at a regional council meeting, emphasizing it’s an item he doesn’t want to see “lost in the background” after council approved a $742,800 increase to the budget for a pedestrian and cycling bridge over Hwy. 7/8 in Kitchener.
Consideration of the proposal will be addressed within the region’s upcoming integrated mobility plan, transportation commissioner Mathieu Goetzke said.
Craig’s request has been included in the scope of the overall study that’s going to tender for a consultant who will evaluate future needs, based on population and location.

“These are big strategic questions that will be brought back to council as part of that plan,” said Goetzke, noting that a new pedestrian crossing of the Grand River would be a significant construction endeavour.
Craig wants to “light a fire” to see something move ahead within the next two to three years in the area near the Cambridge Mill, where towers are planned along the river.

The city opened its first pedestrian bridge crossing of the Grand River in 2018, between Founder’s Point on the east and the Cambridge Sculpture Garden on the west, as part of the former city council’s “Back to the Rivers” vision for Cambridge, when Craig was mayor.
A second pedestrian bridge is on the region’s radar because it would hook into the regional trails system, with hiking and cycling a main focus of the upper-tier government, Craig said.

“We’re a river city and in major cities across the world that are river cities, there are a multitude of pedestrian bridges,” he said. “It’s just part of the growth of a community and I think it’s important to frame that.”

Constituents continue to express safety concerns and there was a death on the train bridge years ago, Crag noted, so “what can happen will happen,” he warns. Last year, a man was seriously injured while fishing, when a group kids dropped a railway tie on his leg from above. The injury could have been much worse, possibly fatal.  The principal at Galt Collegiate didn’t respond Monday to a request for comment, however students and a custodian who spoke to The Record say they don’t see many pedestrians using the bridge these days, with fencing and other safety precautions in place.

“The railway bridge is out of bounds and very dangerous. It is your responsibility to avoid it,” GCI’s Student Code of Conduct reads.

“Parents of any student caught trespassing will be notified by administration. Students will be reported to police and suspended from school.”