Restricting Right Turns on Red

[bravado]

If you stopped at the proper stop line, you wouldn’t have to crane your neck… design influences how we drive and I think our current design (of mostly everything) encourages bad behaviour.

[Kodra24]

If you stopped at the proper stop line, you wouldn’t have to crane your neck… design influences how we drive and I think our current design (of mostly everything) encourages bad behaviour.

Bad behaviour? Ha! Been to Europe lately? And I thought we were in a rush, my goodness

[KWuser422]

I don't agree with banning right turns on red lights.  Efficiency of movement for vehicles, including bicycles is important for urban traffic flow.  Banning right turns will cause more congestion, more idling pollution, and lead to angry and frustrated drivers - downtown Toronto is a great example of this, where people cannot get through intersections on a GREEN light because of heavy pedestrian traffic, and now cannot turn on a red. When exactly are they supposed to make a successful turn? 

In winter, this problem is further exasperated with slow approaches to lights and movement delays due to black ice and deep puddles.  Few people can make it through an intersection on green lights, and again, vehicle movement will become slow and congested. 

Pedestrians need to be more attentive to their surroundings and drivers need to proceed through red AND green light with caution in high traffic areas.  That's the bottom line.  WR has many, many drivers from out of region that will not be familiar with no right turns on a red.  I think it's a ridiculous and expensive proposal.  We need to stop trying to control people and start educating more.  We cannot prevent every death, that's part of life in an urban culture.  Those who want to control everything in the name of safety are part of the unhealthy agenda that results in societal oppression.  No thank you.

[danbrotherston]

This made me realize that near-side signals are also probably incompatible with unprotected left turns (or at least fairly problematic). Many intersections here, at least during higher traffic times of day, depend on vehicles waiting in the intersection and only actually clearing on it yellow/red.

Good point. I do like the current system of having traffic lights straight ahead in front of you instead of to the immediate left/right - who wants to strain their neck having to wait for the change? Also if a pedestrian is late crossing from the other side of where you're looking at you're smoking them once the light turns green

Having actually lived in a country which has lights positions to the left and right, I can tell you that you're wrong about where you have to look. The signal is still in front of you when you stop behind the line, you just look straight ahead. Nobody is straining their necks.

[MidTowner]

In Canada anyway, I think much of this tinkering is moot without enforcement. The City of Kitchener has been installing signs restricting right turns on red or other types of movements- I can think of Margaret and Wellington and several intersections downtown and on King Street. To a great extent they are ignored, they seem to be ignored.

This is anecdotal, but I know people who have received speeding tickets. I can't think of anyone who has received a ticket for turning into the wrong lane, turning right when it was prohibited but they didn't see the new sign, or anything along these lines. This kind of driving has been normalized, putting up a few signs at a few extra intersections probably won't do much to constrain the worst drivers who are likely to be taking those turns in an unsafe manner in the first place.

[danbrotherston]

In Canada anyway, I think much of this tinkering is moot without enforcement. The City of Kitchener has been installing signs restricting right turns on red or other types of movements- I can think of Margaret and Wellington and several intersections downtown and on King Street. To a great extent they are ignored, they seem to be ignored.

This is anecdotal, but I know people who have received speeding tickets. I can't think of anyone who has received a ticket for turning into the wrong lane, turning right when it was prohibited but they didn't see the new sign, or anything along these lines. This kind of driving has been normalized, putting up a few signs at a few extra intersections probably won't do much to constrain the worst drivers who are likely to be taking those turns in an unsafe manner in the first place.

Indeed.

I think the speeding ticket thing is also an issue of a sliding scale. Nobody has ever received a speeding ticket for driving 15km/h over the limit (outside of a school zone at least). The people who I know who have gotten speeding tickets were doing >20km/h over the limit.

But there is no equivalent sliding scale for illegal turns. You either turn or you didn't. So police seem unwilling to enforce the actual law without a huge buffer, and there is no buffer around turns.

[bravado]

Enforcement is a real one... I never see any of it. I feel like the true answer for "no right on red" is to just eliminate slip lanes and turning lanes to design-away the whole concept, but that would likely start a suburban civil war if proposed. We'll stick to the classics: mostly unenforceable bylaws!

[danbrotherston]

Enforcement is a real one... I never see any of it. I feel like the true answer for "no right on red" is to just eliminate slip lanes and turning lanes to design-away the whole concept, but that would likely start a suburban civil war if proposed. We'll stick to the classics: mostly unenforceable bylaws!

Ironically, the Netherlands rarely has right turn on green. Or more to the point, most right turn phases are protected, which requires right turn lanes. You want a war, tell people they can't turn right on a green 🤣

[Kodra24]

Good point. I do like the current system of having traffic lights straight ahead in front of you instead of to the immediate left/right - who wants to strain their neck having to wait for the change? Also if a pedestrian is late crossing from the other side of where you're looking at you're smoking them once the light turns green

Having actually lived in a country which has lights positions to the left and right, I can tell you that you're wrong about where you have to look. The signal is still in front of you when you stop behind the line, you just look straight ahead. Nobody is straining their necks.

I've also lived and travelled extensively in Europe - you do not look straight ahead when the traffic signal is literally to the left or right of you, this applies even more to 2 or 3 lane large urban roads

Having the signal directly in front of the driver and high up where it's visible is far better, I'm sorry to inform you but you are again, as with most issues, wrong.

[neonjoe]

Straight ahead lights are great for zombie drivers whom never turn their heads to look around...

[Kodra24]

Guess you prefer the tourist drivers who look anywhere but straight in front of them, love driving behind those

[panamaniac]

Having actually lived in a country which has lights positions to the left and right, I can tell you that you're wrong about where you have to look. The signal is still in front of you when you stop behind the line, you just look straight ahead. Nobody is straining their necks.

I've also lived and travelled extensively in Europe - you do not look straight ahead when the traffic signal is literally to the left or right of you, this applies even more to 2 or 3 lane large urban roads

Having the signal directly in front of the driver and high up where it's visible is far better, I'm sorry to inform you but you are again, as with most issues, wrong.

Certainly "better" for inattentive drivers.

[ijmorlan]

Enforcement is a real one... I never see any of it. I feel like the true answer for "no right on red" is to just eliminate slip lanes and turning lanes to design-away the whole concept, but that would likely start a suburban civil war if proposed. We'll stick to the classics: mostly unenforceable bylaws!

?? We need more turn lanes and fewer 2nd lanes (additional through lanes besides the first one). We have roads all over the place where we have paid for 4 lanes to be built everywhere, but the road manages to be congested at intersections due to waiting for people to turn even while it is way below capacity between intersections.

[danbrotherston]

Having actually lived in a country which has lights positions to the left and right, I can tell you that you're wrong about where you have to look. The signal is still in front of you when you stop behind the line, you just look straight ahead. Nobody is straining their necks.

I've also lived and travelled extensively in Europe - you do not look straight ahead when the traffic signal is literally to the left or right of you, this applies even more to 2 or 3 lane large urban roads

Having the signal directly in front of the driver and high up where it's visible is far better, I'm sorry to inform you but you are again, as with most issues, wrong.

Perhaps you are stopping in the wrong place. On this two lane urban road when we stop behind the stop line, the traffic signal is easily within our field of view while looking forward.

As for what is better, you are of course accustomed to the traffic signal positioning in North America but putting them on the near side of intersections OBJECTIVELY leads to better compliance of drivers leaving the crosswalk clear. You may not care about that but other people do.

[neonjoe]

Guess you prefer the tourist drivers who look anywhere but straight in front of them, love driving behind those

I prefer drivers that are defensive and actually aware of their surroundings. This involves actually checking and looking around constantly for other vehicles and pedestrians. Someone that only looks straight ahead is a terrible driver. I’ve been driving for 28 years and can see the downwards trajectory of drivers and people are far less aware of their surroundings.