ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit

[Markster]

I'm simply saying that the conditions on the ground are no different from before the closure.

The only change is that Kitchener is no longer assuming liability. Easiest way for a private organization to deal with that is to put up a fence.

[Andy]

Oh well. I'm sure someone got wind of it since they reinforced the fences this morning.

The ground conditions are uneven compared to the Duke crossing. I don't think there's any danger related to the construction or railway, only that someone can trip on the uneven ground.

[BuildingScout]

I'm simply saying that the conditions on the ground are no different from before the closure.

The only change is that Kitchener is no longer assuming liability.  Easiest way for a private organization to deal with that is to put up a fence.

They had announced a similar closure of the train tracks around the university. I was told the university complained and GrandLinq reopened this crossing with a much shorter closure period, suggesting that indeed they have been careless in the selection of the closing period.

[taylortbb]

Mark, there is one difference compared to pre-closure, and that's the lack of any crossing alarm.

I'm personally comfortable crossing at Waterloo St, but I'm very careful to stop well before the tracks and look both ways. Any train in sight I won't cross.

But I understand why it's not acceptable to have a crossing of a mainline railway with no warning system.

[chutten]

But I understand why it's not acceptable to have a crossing of a mainline railway with no warning system.

Yeah, except for all the level crossings in other parts of Canada where the only warnings are the red-and-white crosses. Lived just down the hill from one, and my parents made sure to use that as an excuse to quiet us all down so we could look and listen.

[Canard]

Trains in an urban environment do not blow their horns. They're not supposed to - unless someone is crossing illegally. I live within sight of the tracks and once or twice a week, sure enough, I hear a VIA or GO train blast its horn, because some idiot crossed in front of it illegally and almost got killed.

So, the reason why Waterloo St. is now a dangerous crossing is because a) the signals are disabled, which would otherwise warn you, and b) the trains aren't blowing their horn.

...So it's not at all comparable to in the country where a non-active signal is ok - because there, the train blows its horn.

Sorry - grew up in a train family and Operation Lifesaver was drilled into my head from a very, very early age. I respect these machines - they have no respect for me!

[chutten]

Operation Lifesaver's where I got the "look and listen" bit from, so I get it.

That being said, I know of many machines that have no respect for me. Most of them are called automobiles, and they are far more likely to kill me than a train.

But now I find myself moving from talking about the world that exists to talking about a sensible place.

Waterloo St must be blockaded because our own laws and regs say so. That they don't make sense and are disproportionate in this or all situations is irrelevant. That they might only have to because of a sloppily-worded definition ("“road” means any way or course, whether public or not, available for vehicular or pedestrian use;" - Railway Safety Act - R.S.C., 1985, c. 32 (4th Supp.) (Section 4) ) is also irrelevant.

It sucks, and we have every right to complain about it and imagine a world that makes sense. But that doesn't help the NW-SE flow of pedestrians and cyclists in Kitchener.

Does anyone have an idea that _could_ help these people?

[isUsername]

Trains in an urban environment do not blow their horns.  They're not supposed to - unless someone is crossing illegally. I live within sight of the tracks and once or twice a week, sure enough, I hear a VIA or GO train blast its horn, because some idiot crossed in front of it illegally and almost got killed.

So, the reason why Waterloo St. is now a dangerous crossing is because a) the signals are disabled, which would otherwise warn you, and b) the trains aren't blowing their horn.

...So it's not at all comparable to in the country where a non-active signal is ok - because there, the train blows its horn.

Sorry - grew up in a train family and Operation Lifesaver was drilled into my head from a very, very early age. I respect these machines - they have no respect for me!

The railway that crosses Queen St. S. near Mill St. and goes by Victoria Park has at least three movements on most days. There's also a pedestrian crossing a few hundred meters up where the tracks cross the Iron Horse Trail. These trains don't normally blow their horns, either.

The horn isn't the only audible warning device. Trains also have bells, and the trains ring their bells at the road crossing and at the Iron Horse Trail crossing.

A crossing seems to be acceptable in this case, despite what is probably more interaction between trains and pedestrians/cyclists than would be on Waterloo St.

[curiouschair]

It looks like the corner of Caroline and Erb is down to one lane on Caroline, travelling south.  With King blocked off, this seems like very poor timing and coordination.  This corner is busy at the best of times, but becoming a complete zoo.

It's confusing, they seem to be changing the lane patterns on a daily basis. I'm pretty sure that the intersection will be like this for the next year or so.

[MacBerry]

Waterloo has giant Danger/Don't cross here signs there but people just push past the fence anyway.  

If it is NOT truly a danger, then it's problematic because it leads to a culture of feeling that it is ok to just ignore signs and do whatever the hell you want. Then someone gets killed by a train or falls down a pit where there really IS a danger, and the project is delayed and opening will get pushed back (which will really annoy me.).

I think this is very well-said. If it’s a case that it’s perfectly safe, then people are being inconvenienced for no reason. I know that some people are crossing at Waterloo, but they are not supposed to be and from what I can observe most people are going around to Duke. As far as the City and Region are concerned, Waterloo and King are both closed, and Duke will be, too. I don’t think they are assuming that the detour is only affecting the risk-averse and the law-abiding.

Two important reasons which seem to be less of a concern in this discussion but are the real reasons for the danger or keep out warnings:

For insurance reasons if GrandLinq doesn't sign and fence these areas (they are doing the same in downtown Waterloo, University area or the Waterloo-Victoria Street closure and everywhere they are undertaking construction) they would have no chance of entering a mitigation defence in a situation where a trespasser is injured or killed. Sometimes it is hard enough to ensure the protection of workers on these sites let alone trespassers.

Secondly, construction sites are heavily regulated in Ontario and this area has both federal and provincial jurisdiction watching over it. Fencing and signage is required by law. At the most simplistic end of things required include hard hats and appropriately coloured outer clothing are required on site and many many more regulations come into play at every minute of the day.

Deterrence is an action that is defensible in court, negligence is not.

[ijmorlan]

[…]
Sorry - grew up in a train family and Operation Lifesaver was drilled into my head from a very, very early age. I respect these machines - they have no respect for me!

The railway that crosses Queen St. S. near Mill St. and goes by Victoria Park has at least three movements on most days. There's also a pedestrian crossing a few hundred meters up where the tracks cross the Iron Horse Trail. These trains don't normally blow their horns, either.

The horn isn't the only audible warning device. Trains also have bells, and the trains ring their bells at the road crossing and at the Iron Horse Trail crossing.

A crossing seems to be acceptable in this case, despite what is probably more interaction between trains and pedestrians/cyclists than would be on Waterloo St.

I don’t know the actual details, but I do know the mainline where Waterloo St. crosses has faster trains than a lot of the other tracks in town. Essentially I would consider almost any apparently excessive safety requirement related to the Waterloo Spur to be probably actually excessive; but I would not have that opinion re: Waterloo St. crossing the main line. I don’t feel that I am knowledgeable about the speeds on the line you’re talking about.

My question would be why they removed the crossing protection from Waterloo St. Before all this happened there was nothing wrong with that crossing. Indeed, if this is for several months, why not re-install the protection? The detour currently required is quite significant for a pedestrian.

[ijmorlan]

I think there is a tendency to kneejerk: either any complaint about closures is just a version of NIMBY — any excuse to complain about the LRT project; or any closure is just part of Ken Seiling’s master plan to force everybody to ride the white elephant LRT by snarling traffic. Real life, of course, is more complicated than either of these options.

I don’t think it’s at all NIMBY to question whether more could have been done to prevent a detour of a kilometre. That’s a substantial barrier for a lot of people.

Agreed. My phrasing may have been unclear. I’m suggesting that one group of people (typically but not necessarily people who support LRT) will dismiss any criticism of a closure, while another group (typically but not necessarily LRT denialists) will complain about any closure, no matter how obviously necessary.

Other people will actually think about the specific issue being discussed and say something thoughtful.

[TMKM94]

Would it be possible for a set of temporary stairs/ramp to be built over Waterloo or Duke St?

[timio]

Work at Fairview is starting as early as tomorrow with track installation scheduled for the summer.  Work on Wilson is starting in a few months and should last 2 months.

I'm not sure if they proofed their notice very well:

Starting in late-March, for approximately two months, access to and from Wilson will be limited to emergency services, hospital patients, local residents and businesses only at the following intersections: Fairview and Kingsway

Unless they're talking about the nursing home on Kingsway, there isn't a hospital accessible from Wilson.  Likely re-using one from when roads were closed around GRH.

[KevinL]

Over on Charles this morning, the tarp-tents had their endcaps open so the tracks could be seen.