General Road and Highway Discussion

[Section ThirtyOne]

The traffic calming on Glasgow is a joke and does absolutely nothing to slow down drivers. Complete waste of money.

[MidTowner]

50 is the correct speed limit, 40 is not used anywhere else in similar conditions.

The fact is however, that this street is one of the best examples of corruption in the city.  The homeowners don't want other people using *their* road, the bike lanes are continually filled with vehicles, and yet little to nothing is ever done about it, and the only conceivable reason is the wealth of the residents on the street.  

Quite frankly, I can no longer use the road for biking.

That's a point we can all agree on: the bike lanes, like elsewhere, are not enforced.

[SammyOES]

The fact is however, that this street is one of the best examples of corruption in the city.  

I think "corruption" is the wrong word. I think it could just be that local governments respond to people that show up, and the wealthy people generally show up more (for lots of reasons).

I've been in a lot of local government meetings where a delegation that almost certainly represents a minority view gets their way because they showed up. A lot of time I don't even know if its deeper than most humans don't like conflict and by appeasing the people that show up you avoid a direct conflict.

I'm not saying this is really any better than actual corruption. But its at least a more tractable problem then real corruption.

[clasher]

50 is the correct speed limit, 40 is not used anywhere else in similar conditions.

The fact is however, that this street is one of the best examples of corruption in the city.  The homeowners don't want other people using *their* road, the bike lanes are continually filled with vehicles, and yet little to nothing is ever done about it, and the only conceivable reason is the wealth of the residents on the street.  

Quite frankly, I can no longer use the road for biking.

LOL, how do you ride anywhere else in this city? Glasgow is still a decent road for riding, especially between Westmount and F-H, even with the stupid curbed portion of the bike lanes it's rarely too busy.

I too think the word corruption is a bit dramatic, it's not like those people gave the mayor a briefcase full of cash to get their way... and there are other places in city where they've put weird traffic humps, and "normal" traffic humps. Sydney street has them, I just rode along Doon South and there are some funny split humps along that road... could have been Robert Ferrie, they aren't on the most recent streetview. CoK Traffic Calming page has all kinds of stuff from the studies and whatnot. It doesn't appear to be completely based on greasing the squeakiest wheel.

Also, unrelated to traffic calming, if you're riding in the southwest of Kitchener, Plains Road is no longer passable between Huron and F-H, they're developing that farmland into subdivisions so there is no road anymore. Google maps told me it was open when I planned my route... it also thinks that the stairs at the end of Durham street are rideable on a bike.

[Canard]

Dan is not wrong. This road is a hot mess.

   

[ijmorlan]

Dan is not wrong.  This road is a hot mess.

Wow. I don’t even understand what they’re trying to accomplish. It just makes no sense at all.

Stuff like this is why I don’t really respect the supposed expertise of planners and traffic engineers. It’s clear they often really don’t know what they’re doing.

[boatracer]

Extremely surprised to see they plan to expand Blair Road between Fountain and George. That section of road has never struck me as being bad for traffic or needing to be widened.

Also surprised to see a New Dundee - Dickie Settlement bridge being planned over the 401....



I mean, why? To save 30 seconds on your drive for a very small number of people? I'm at the Homer Watson - 401 interchange every day and a very SMALL portion of people turning from New Dundee continue on to Dickie Settlement. What am I missing?

"Extremely surprised to see they plan to expand Blair Road between Fountain and George. That section of road has never struck me as being bad for traffic or needing to be widened."

Yeah unless there is an accident it is never slow through there. Wondering if they are looking at providing bike lanes. In the spring-fall there are a lot of cyclists and most sections aren't very wide with a lot of curves.

I wonder if the planned upgrade for Blair Rd is tied to the new 1800 housing unit Cambridge West Development that will be moving forward based on recent approval from the Cambridge Planning board. It was scheduled to go to the OMB this spring.

[Canard]

Those shallow ramps are something else, too. If you don’t get guided off into traffic when you hit them, you get to enjoy wiping out when they force your wheel to the left violently*.

They should be straight-on...

* - yep, I know, you should be holding onto the handlebars firmly at times like this and give a quick, forceful counter-steer to mitigate the impact. And I’m guessing 10% of cyclists know how to do this, so that’s piss-poor to design like that

[ijmorlan]

Those shallow ramps are something else, too. If you don’t get guided off into traffic when you hit them, you get to enjoy wiping out when they force your wheel to the left violently*.

They should be straight-on...

* - yep, I know, you should be holding onto the handlebars firmly at times like this and give a quick, forceful counter-steer to mitigate the impact. And I’m guessing 10% of cyclists know how to do this, so that’s piss-poor to design like that

Another good, and clearly objective, point. Your technique should be for locations where it is needed, such as a straight road crossing a railway track at a shallow angle that was determined by decisions made in the 1880s. It shouldn’t be needed in locations where shallow angle obstacles have been introduced for no good reason. This is sort of like the UW E5 entrance ramp, which I consider an accessibility fail even though wheelchairs can in fact get into the building using the ramp.

[clasher]

Those shallow ramps are something else, too. If you don’t get guided off into traffic when you hit them, you get to enjoy wiping out when they force your wheel to the left violently*.

They should be straight-on...

* - yep, I know, you should be holding onto the handlebars firmly at times like this and give a quick, forceful counter-steer to mitigate the impact. And I’m guessing 10% of cyclists know how to do this, so that’s piss-poor to design like that

They shouldn't even be there, it's not like bicycles are the problem on that road. I never ride over them, I just merge into the regular lane, AFAIK there's no law saying I have to use the bike lane.

Hot mess is a good way to describe it... I would love to ask the designer of this shit WTF they were thinking.

[danbrotherston]

Those shallow ramps are something else, too. If you don’t get guided off into traffic when you hit them, you get to enjoy wiping out when they force your wheel to the left violently*.

They should be straight-on...

* - yep, I know, you should be holding onto the handlebars firmly at times like this and give a quick, forceful counter-steer to mitigate the impact. And I’m guessing 10% of cyclists know how to do this, so that’s piss-poor to design like that

They shouldn't even be there, it's not like bicycles are the problem on that road. I never ride over them, I just merge into the regular lane, AFAIK there's no law saying I have to use the bike lane.  

Hot mess is a good way to describe it... I would love to ask the designer of this shit WTF they were thinking.

Please do ask them.  City staff and councilors need to know this design is bad.  I know that some staff members are not happy about it, let they know they're not the only ones.

[jamincan]

I was in touch with Barry Cronkite, the manager of transportation planning with the City of Kitchener awhile ago. My impression was that the changes were sincerely made with the goal to improve cycling safety and reduce vehicle speeds on Glasgow. The disappointing part was that there definitely did not seem to be an openness to hearing about how my actual experience on that part of the road did not live up to their goals.

The correspondence for the record:

Dear Mr. Cronkite,

I am writing regarding the newly installed speed bumps on the Glasgow Street bike lanes. I have read the justification that the City of Kitchener has provided to others by e-mail and twitter that the speed bumps were installed to calm traffic and discourage drivers from travelling into the bike lane.

Unfortunately, despite the intentions of the city, in the context of this location, this measure has made the street feel very unfriendly toward cyclists and made it even more unsafe for cyclists. This is discouraging, as existing traffic calming infrastructure on the street is already very unpleasant and dangerous for cyclists and the situation has only worsened. A dangerous and unpleasant space for cyclists should not be the outcome of traffic calming.

I am a very strong advocate for traffic calming measures and appreciate that the city would like to encourage cycling; however, if the city had done proper consultation with the cycling community in Waterloo Region, I believe they would have found very strong opposition to this particular measure and the calming measures already implemented on Glasgow. While they may have the intended effect of slowing down car traffic, it comes at the expense of making this street feel very unsafe for cyclists.

Glasgow Street is an important East-West artery for cyclists; avoiding it forces very long detours. This infrastructure, therefore, will not only have the effect of pushing cyclists away from Glasgow Street, but also discouraging cycling in general. I hope that the City will:

- replace the speed bumps and other dangerous traffic calming measures on Glasgow St. with calming measures that better accommodate cyclists
- include cyclists in consultation when designing calming measures that are intended, in part, to make the street safer and more friendly toward cyclists
- refrain from installing this form of calming on other streets in the city.

Respectfully,

Hi Jeremy,



The latest measure isn’t complete; there is a center mountable island with flex pole to preclude drivers from weaving through.  I recognize that may sound counterintuitive, but a speed hump actually has negligible impact on cycling, as there is only a slight vertical rise (8cm) spread out over 2 meters.  In short, it shouldn’t impact cycling speeds or rider comfort at all.  As a cyclist myself, I can tell you that I’ve biked over speed humps without concern. The main reason that they are so impactful for vehicle speeds is the higher rate of speed (these reduce vehicle speeds to app. 45 km/h), in conjunction with the wheel base and overall weight of vehicles.  When considering cyclists safety, we shouldn’t discount the speed of which traffic travels on the adjacent roadway. Our goal on Glasgow Street has always been to reduce that operating speed to at or below 50km/h, which in turn reduces the overall potential of serious injury in the unfortunate event of a collision.



I recognize that maintenance along the raised portions of the cycling facility is an issue (lawn care, snow buildup, leaf removal), and it’s an issue that we’re investigating and hope to solve moving forward.  As staff, we also recognize that this street isn’t as straight forward from a cycling perspective as it once was, but the slower vehicle speeds should help to increase overall safety.  



Again, we recognize the perception of what has been installed, but there was significant consideration and forethought involved in the design of this measure as it relates to cycling safety and roadway operating conditions.



If you would like to discuss this further, please do not hesitate to contact me directly.

Regards,

Barry Cronkite, CET

Hi Barry,

I must respectfully disagree with your assessment of the safety of the cycling infrastructure on that part of Glasgow Street. If this were on a flat portion of the street, the consequences would not be quite as severe, but in the context of the hill on Glasgow, the shifting of the cycling lane over the curbs and the newly installed speed bumps are not only dangerous (particularly in rainy or icy conditions) but, importantly, feel unsafe. Bike handling is already compromised in both directions due to the hill, adding these hazards make the situation much worse.

I completely agree that it is important to reduce the speed of cars on the road, but this is not the correct solution. Although you intended to make the street feel safer, you have made it both feel less safe, and, in my opinion, made it more dangerous. There are other traffic calming measures that could have been adopted instead that would have reduced vehicle speeds without compromising the safety and security of cyclists.

If the city had properly consulted with the public prior to installing these measures and evaluated these measures against alternative measures, I am sure that they would have found that cyclists are very opposed to the particular measures that were adopted here. The almost universal condemnation of this particular measure by cycling advocates in the region must surely indicate to you that the city was mistaken in proceeding without proper public consultation and reconsider the wisdom of their adoption. I hope that the City of Kitchener will do the correct thing and reassess this part of Glasgow Street and make an honest effort to correct the mistakes there and avoid repeating them elsewhere in the city.

Best Regards,

Jeremy

[Section ThirtyOne]

The speed humps as they are installed now do nothing to slow down traffic along that stretch. Cars can go over them without issue at 60km/h+, I see it regularly riding along this stretch. I'd love to see how much money has been spent on rebuilding this road to the state it is now.

IMO this appears to be a perfect example of an influential, vocal group getting whatever they want despite little to no actual improvement in safety.

[Canard]

Wow, that’s awesome - thanks for sharing that, Jeremy!

That little window into the dilusuonal mind of a regional traffic planner really clears up why we see so much questionable infra being built.

[NotStan]

The speed humps as they are installed now do nothing to slow down traffic along that stretch. Cars can go over them without issue at 60km/h+, I see it regularly riding along this stretch. I'd love to see how much money has been spent on rebuilding this road to the state it is now.

IMO this appears to be a perfect example of an influential, vocal group getting whatever they want despite little to no actual improvement in safety.

I don't know that the "influential, vocal group" got "whatever they wanted".   They got something but as folks have posted, speed has not really been reduced and bike safety has not really been improved.  And they got a streetscape that is quite unattractive.  I wonder if the city has acted out of spite.  If I lived on glasgow, I would want the street returned to its former glory and I would pester police to be present to ticket speeders.