The Inclusive on Courtland | 38, 34, 30 & 29 fl | Proposed

[danbrotherston]

Honestly, I've never understood this.  Owning a car if you don't need it (every day) is vastly expensive.

Indeed. it is. Owning a nice car (rather than a basic one) is also expensive. As is living in a nice place, riding a nice bike, wearing a nice watch or vacationing in a nice location. These are really, at least to some extent, luxury goods rather than essentials. But people are, in general, willing to spend money on such luxuries -- which specific ones, depends on the individual.

And I'm OK with that. A car parked in the garage is better than one being used for a daily commute.

I'm not suggesting that people aren't willing to spend on luxuries, but I think there are two big points,

1) People don't perceive cars as a luxury, they see them as an essential good.

Frankly, I fully understand why, our society is car dependent.  Living downtown makes it possible to live without a car, I do it, but it is an inconvenience at best, and at worst, feels limiting to my mobility, especially in winter when I must worry if the sidewalks will be safe.

2) People have very little idea how much they spend on their cars.  Most of it is a sunk cost on insurance, depreciation, and maintenance. So I doubt many people have ever done the "how much is this trip costing me" calculation.

Ultimately, I don't think many people would spend the real cost of a car on the luxury of having a car, if we weren't forced to by the car dependent nature of our city.  But obviously this is only my opinion.

For me, having the car share partially mitigates the problems, but obviously this only applies in a couple of areas of the city, and wouldn't on Courtland.

I'm not going to say I don't prefer a car in a garage to one used for commuting, but ultimately, having a car in a garage still has an opportunity cost and an economic one.

[danbrotherston]

Also, a 10 minute walk will get you to Food Basics and all the retail there and about 20 minutes walk will get you to Fairview Mall or No Frills for that matter.   Not a scenic or pleasant walk but better walkable retail, restaurants and services than in most areas of the local cities.

No offense, but I view this comment the same way I view realtor ads boasting a high walk score which fail to take into consideration the basic aspects of the environment. Pretty much all of the "walkable" (I really debate this too, beyond 10 minutes is pushing the definition, at least for me) shops are on Fairway, a notoriously terrible place to be a pedestrian. The way we build bridges in this city, like Block Line, is unpleasant too. At least this one has a "bike lane" to provide a small buffer for pedestrians.

I dunno, in my mind a transit oriented community must be an equally walkable neighbourhood to succeed, and this just doesn't do it for me. If it does for other people, then I hope they enjoy living there, it just confuses me.

I strongly agree with this...I cannot remember which forum but this was a surprisingly divided discussion where some folks felt that neighbourhoods like Courtland Ave were walkable because it was possible to walk places.  I was shocked.

As for people enjoying living there, I'm sure they do. I'm sure they also generally own cars.

[panamaniac]

How would people rate the Virerra location to that of the large Drewlo towers across the “valley” on Fallowfield?

[tomh009]

2) People have very little idea how much they spend on their cars. Most of it is a sunk cost on insurance, depreciation, and maintenance. So I doubt many people have ever done the "how much is this trip costing me" calculation.

For many people it's true, but not all. My car has cost me about $4500/year in depreciation (yes, it's a nice car), $1000/year in insurance and maybe $600/year in maintenance and tires (haven't had to pay for a repair yet in the nine years I have had it). That's a little over $6000/year, or $500/month. For me, that has been an acceptable standby cost (not counting the gas for trips here). Others will have different math.

For me, having the car share partially mitigates the problems, but obviously this only applies in a couple of areas of the city, and wouldn't on Courtland.

Communauto has 15 locations in Kitchener. Adding one at Virerra doesn't seem like a stretch, especially considering that there will be 1,500 units there, in addition to the existing buildings. But I doubt any discussions have been had about this so far.

[danbrotherston]

2) People have very little idea how much they spend on their cars.  Most of it is a sunk cost on insurance, depreciation, and maintenance. So I doubt many people have ever done the "how much is this trip costing me" calculation.

For many people it's true, but not all. My car has cost me about $4500/year in depreciation (yes, it's a nice car), $1000/year in insurance and maybe $600/year in maintenance and tires (haven't had to pay for a repair yet in the nine years I have had it).  That's a little over $6000/year, or $500/month. For me, that has been an acceptable standby cost (not counting the gas for trips here). Others will have different math.

For me, having the car share partially mitigates the problems, but obviously this only applies in a couple of areas of the city, and wouldn't on Courtland.

Communauto has 15 locations in Kitchener. Adding one at Virerra doesn't seem like a stretch, especially considering that there will be 1,500 units there, in addition to the existing buildings. But I doubt any discussions have been had about this so far.

I mean, it would depend on how many trips you take no? If you used your car every two months, you could probably hire a limo each time for that price. But if it's worth it to you, that's great, I mean, some people own cars just as a hobby, and only drive them a few times a year.

But my issue is that I believe very few people actually do the math. A car is just something an adult owns, it costs what it costs...and in many cases, again, because there is no actual alternative.

As for Communauto, they could possibly add one there, it's hard to know--I don't know the particular economics of their vehicles (although given that I was a member of community car share, I probably could get an idea of it). The general unwalkability of the area means they're likely only to capture users from that development, and possibly the condos across the road--sadly even the multiple Fallowfield towers are probably too far--given the windswept chasm between them.

With the transit station there, they could possibly make a compelling argument. But ironically, the biggest determinate of whether they would actually be successful with a car share vehicle there or not is the parking situation at Virerra, if parking is charged separately, it would probably significantly increase the number of users of a car share. In fact, this is one type of incentive that can be offered to developers, a reduction in parking minimums in return for hosting car sharing services (leaving aside the fact I think we should not have parking minimums). It comes back to the original point, 50 dollars a month for parking is far more effective at deterring people from owning (or driving) a car, than 300 dollars a month in depreciation.

[Momo26]

The renderings are not that impressive and I'm trying to figure out which parcel of land we are talking about...on Blockline LRT ? Does someone have an aerial pic?

[GarthDanlor]

[quote pid='87524' dateline='1608154895']

Also, a 10 minute walk will get you to Food Basics and all the retail there and about 20 minutes walk will get you to Fairview Mall or No Frills for that matter.   Not a scenic or pleasant walk but better walkable retail, restaurants and services than in most areas of the local cities.

No offense, but I view this comment the same way I view realtor ads boasting a high walk score which fail to take into consideration the basic aspects of the environment. Pretty much all of the "walkable" (I really debate this too, beyond 10 minutes is pushing the definition, at least for me) shops are on Fairway, a notoriously terrible place to be a pedestrian. The way we build bridges in this city, like Block Line, is unpleasant too. At least this one has a "bike lane" to provide a small buffer for pedestrians.

I dunno, in my mind a transit oriented community must be an equally walkable neighbourhood to succeed, and this just doesn't do it for me. If it does for other people, then I hope they enjoy living there, it just confuses me.
[/quote]
Definitely not an add or endorsement for the area, really just reacting to your car comment.  Simply that you could live here without a car with more ease than most areas in the region, as you have bus and rail transit at your front door and you do have walkable retail, restaurant, grocery & service destinations within 20 minutes.  Damning with faint praise really. There is no doubt that Fairway is an unpleasant place to walk, cycle or drive.  I do however live in a neighborhood on the periphery of downtown, which is also say 10 to 20 minutes walk depending on which side of Downtown you are walking to and I find that easily walkable in terms of time/distance.

[Momo26]

In a nutshell, K-W still warrants a car, hands down...I don't think there's any way of truly getting around it...especially if you have a family...

[danbrotherston]

In a nutshell, K-W still warrants a car, hands down...I don't think there's any way of truly getting around it...especially if you have a family...

I mean, not without changes to the city. But there are totally reasonable changes that could be made to remove that necessity.

The LRT is the start but not sufficient in itself. But developments like this are probably neutral.

[Acitta]

In a nutshell, K-W still warrants a car, hands down...I don't think there's any way of truly getting around it...especially if you have a family...

I have lived here 19 years and have never felt the need to own a car. Bicycling and public transit have always been sufficient. There are a lot of people with families who don't own cars. I see them on the buses and on bicycles.

[panamaniac]

I can't imagine living without a car. Even though I've only driven my car less than 2,000km in the past year. It's just a convenience and the cost is irrelevant (to me). Could I survive without a car? Yes, but I choose not to.

[KevinL]

The renderings are not that impressive and I'm trying to figure out which parcel of land we are talking about...on Blockline LRT ? Does someone have an aerial pic?

Yes, the long block along Courtland between the LRT and the rail yard, the full length between Block Line and Graybar on Hayward.

[ac3r]

The renderings are not that impressive and I'm trying to figure out which parcel of land we are talking about...on Blockline LRT ? Does someone have an aerial pic?

Here's a link to it on Google Maps. It's the mowed grass strip between the bridge and trees on the Greybar property: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4232748,...a=!3m1!1e3

[Belmonster]

I dunno, in my mind a transit oriented community must be an equally walkable neighbourhood to succeed, and this just doesn't do it for me. If it does for other people, then I hope they enjoy living there, it just confuses me.

Seems like a bootstrapping problem. Although this development is designed to be walkable and transit oriented, the neighborhood around it isn't. Somebody has to go first, though. I'm hopeful that the surrounding car lots and vacant land will eventually be replaced with other walkable, transit-oriented developments -- at the very least this seems like a good push in that direction.

In the meantime, easy access to transit counts for a lot, and as far as I know this is as easy as access to the ION gets.

[jeffster]

In a nutshell, K-W still warrants a car, hands down...I don't think there's any way of truly getting around it...especially if you have a family...

I have lived here 19 years and have never felt the need to own a car. Bicycling and public transit have always been sufficient. There are a lot of people with families who don't own cars. I see them on the buses and on bicycles.

I think it really depends on a persons or families situation. For some, walking/biking/transit will work fine. For others, it just won't.

If I were to look at my situation:

Regarding my work: I work shifts, 7 times I have to start by 6am another 7 times I finish at 12:00am -- no bus service. Walking not an option, biking not a real option either (I have bad asthma, which activates during very warm weather and anything below 12ºC). That leaves me using a cab (about $40 per trip) for at least 16x out of 4 weeks (13 periods).

I take care of my elderly mom. A doctors visit, for example, is 3 transfers and about 6 hours of bussing and walking (likely too much walking). Only other option is to take a cab (about $35x2).

My daughter is 'special needs'. It's more of a mental health issues, but she's OCD when it comes to germs, and can't handle being around people she doesn't know. Use a cab is the only other option, but it's still not a good one.

My son works part time, 3 or 4 nights a week. Again, no bus service to work or after for 2 of his days (due to weekend service). Only option then is using a cab and/or biking during good weather (he has equipment that can't get wet, nor risk a fall). Cab is about $18 per trip.

So, we'll say cost to me without a car to do the minimum:
1 Bus pass (me) 12x$90=$1080
About 50 bus tickets for son=$143 (reduced rate)
Cab: Myself $8,320
Cab: Son $3,930
Cab: Mother $840
Cab: Daughter at least $500

Total transportation costs: $14,813

This assumes that I am the only one by groceries, and no bus or cab trips to any other place, just walking. It also excludes visits to the dentists, eye doctor, and no outings outside of the city. It also assumes son can bike to work at least 1/2 the time. It assume no retail shopping (the mall, any large plaza like Sunrise), etc, no movie nights out, no eating out, etc.

If I were to include the above (minus kid biking to work), you could probably tack on at least $4,000 in costs for a total of $18,813 just to have a somewhat, but not truly comparable life.

I just try to think how I would visit a friend/family in Hamilton or Toronto or near Owen Sound, which a normally do at least once or twice a month. I think in those cases, you need a rent a car, so add another $1,000/year for that:

$19,813

My cost for the car:

Bi-Weekly payments: 26x$187: $4,862
Gas: About $25/week: $1,300
Insurance: $1,300
Maintenance (under a plan): $0
Depreciation: Excluded as payments exceed depreciation -$1,000
Total: $7,462. -- with depreciation (car is worth more than owe): $6,462

As for other drawbacks of not having a car and just using transit/cabs/bikes/walking for day to day things like work, appointments, grocery shopping, etc, is the amount of time all that it takes is pretty significant.

But having a car for this family works out to 1/3 the cost of the alternative.