The COVID-19 pandemic

[tomh009]

My concern is long term side effects of a vaccine that is using new technology.

Messenger RNA (mRNA) was discovered in the late 1950s, along with its role in creating proteins (which is exactly what it does in the case of the BioNTech/Pfizer and Moderna vaccines). And RNA itself has existed for millions of years, longer than DNA.

COVID-19 itself is just as new as the vaccine, and the long-term effects of infection are equally unknown.

But I am clearly not going to convince you. However, the good news for you is that no one will force you to vaccinate your kids. At least not until they need to go to school (where unvaccinated kids would increase the risk for everyone).

[jeffster]

My concern is long term side effects of a vaccine that is using new technology. We have zero idea 5, 10, 20 years down the road.

You could argue with as much meaning that we have zero idea how many planets there are orbiting the Sun. We definitely know more than zero about long term effects of the vaccines.

Actually, we really don't know. How long was it before they stopped the sale of hydrogenated food products? I am old enough to remember when 'the scientists' were saying that 'margarine (the hydrogenated stuff)' was a healthier option than butter. How long before they stop the sale of aspartame? When did they stop using formaldehyde in insulation? What about asbestos? When did McDonalds stop frying fries in lard?

Now, a lot of that above stuff is pretty profound, just with a little bit of study. Yet, it was all allowed for years, until the illnesses and deaths climbed too high (well, aspartame is still allowed, for now).

Now, does it matter how many planets revolve around the sun? It's currently 8, could be more, who knows, who cares, it has no effect on us. Even if it did, nothing we can do.

But, literally, we have no zero idea of possible outcomes for children years from now. That's my point. We can't unless we follow for years, which they really don't have the time for.

Ironic, because those peddling this for low risk children have no problem of letting their kids eat sugary and greasy junk food, which WILL limit their life spam and is horrible for their general health. Same folks that allow their kids to be babysat by their electronic devices.

Children have bigger issues than Covid. Might not be the same for us old folks (99% of the users here), but it is, what it is.

Now if this virus takes a turn for the worse for children, and start wiping to the healthy ones (and I say this, because I do believe the high risk children should be vaccinated), then by all means, vaccinate. Hopefully the vaccine will be effective against such a variant.

[jeffster]

My concern is long term side effects of a vaccine that is using new technology.

Messenger RNA (mRNA) was discovered in the late 1950s, along with its role in creating proteins (which is exactly what it does in the case of the BioNTech/Pfizer and Moderna vaccines). And RNA itself has existed for millions of years, longer than DNA.

COVID-19 itself is just as new as the vaccine, and the long-term effects of infection are equally unknown.

But I am clearly not going to convince you. However, the good news for you is that no one will force you to vaccinate your kids. At least not until they need to go to school (where unvaccinated kids would increase the risk for everyone).

Yeah, I know RNA is older than DNA -- this is the ammo that conspiracy theorists and anti-vaxxers use to prove that mRNA is dangerous and will turn us into lizards in the near future (personally hoping that I'm turned into an alligator).

All my family is vaccinated, including 2 'kids', though legally, only one is considered a 'child'. I'm not anti-vax, Tom.

BTW: Not looking for convincing, just looking for honesty. As an example, children are at low risk of pneumonia, but it seems higher than Covid-19. We also have Prevnar-13, which offers great protections against pneumonia. It's not a requirement tho.

[JoeKW]

I'm not sure where this position is coming from? What would be the mechanism of action to cause long term effects with these vaccines? What is your hypothesis?


Here's the real concern: It's possible the studies aren't large enough to 'see' all the possible side effects. We don't know for sure that the vaccine won't kill 1 in 100,000 kids because the trials didn't have enough people to cover that. In adults we only detected that signal for AstraZenica after widespread vaccinations were occurring and even then it took millions of doses and more than a few deaths before we really figured it out. The risk from the AstraZenica vaccine is greater than the risk from covid for healthy people under 40 when covid is under control.

It's possible that something like this can happen with children with the mRNA vaccine. The FDA in the US repeats the mantra: 'Children are not small adults' because they've learned hard lessons in making such assumptions. With that said, there is no mechanism of action that would cause adverse effects to occur years/decades later; These aren't prions. If something is going to happen it will happen in the first few weeks.

[taylortbb]

there is no mechanism of action that would cause adverse effects to occur years/decades later; These aren't prions.  If something is going to happen it will happen in the first few weeks.

This. You need a plausible mechanism of action.

The dose makes the poison, and mRNA vaccines are given in tiny doses that are cleared from the body within 48 hours. All the examples of bad long term effects, like hydrogenated oils, aren't from eating them once, they're from lifetime exposure. Same with drugs that had nasty side effects discovered later, they're drugs that are taken regularly over a period of time.

Life is incredibly resilient and self correcting to small doses of things. To kill someone, or have serious effects, you have to get over some threshold of exposure. Either a high dose with immediate effects, or a low dose for a long period of time. This is the reason there's never been a long term side effect of a vaccine, but they happen occasionally for drugs. The two classes of products are simply not comparable in this area, due to vastly different exposure profiles.

Anyone that suggests a vaccine might have a long term effect simply isn't following the data.

[danbrotherston]

In fact, the ONLY POSSIBLE long term effects of the vaccine must also occur from COVID because the vaccine creates an immune response from the COVID spike protein, which COVID will also do.

[JoeKW]

Yes, unless you believe that the mRNA can alter your DNA in which case we're not really having the same debate.

[jeffster]

Current 7-day Covid-19 cases per 100k

• Chatham-Kent Public Health 106.3
• Windsor-Essex County Health Unit 96.7
• Brant County Health Unit 65.7
• City of Hamilton Public Health Services 49.3
• Niagara Region Public Health 48.3
• Wellington-Dufferin-Guelph Public Health 38.8
• York Region Public Health 36.3
• Peel Public Health 34.5
• Ottawa Public Health 34.2
• Toronto Public Health 32.7

• Region of Waterloo Public Health and Emergency Services 30.8

• North Bay Parry Sound District Health Unit 17.0
• Hastings Prince Edward Public Health 15.4
• Leeds, Grenville & Lanark District Health Unit 15.0
• Algoma Public Health 13.1
• Grey Bruce Health Unit 11.8
• Thunder Bay District Health Unit 9.3
• Renfrew County and District Health Unit 9.2
• Northwestern Health Unit 9.1
• Porcupine Health Unit 3.6
• Timiskaming Health Unit 0.0

• TOTAL ONTARIO 33.8

Windsor drops below 100 cases per 100k per 7 days. Region of Waterloo starting to edge up somewhat. Overall, Ontario has stabilized.

[tomh009]

TUESDAY 2021-09-14

Waterloo Region reported 12 new cases for today (5.7% of the active cases) and one additional for yesterday for 25; 170 new cases for the week (-7 from yesterday and +8 from last week), averaging 12.6% of active cases. 193 active cases, +15 in the last seven days.

An average of 517 tests/day -- still dropping rapidly -- for an ever-higher positivity rate of 4.70%. I really don't like this positivity rate but it's understandable given the super-low testing rate. No one wants to get tested any more?

Seven-day vaccination average is at 1,227 doses/day (previous week was 1,352). 75.41% of total regional population vaccinated (+0.71% from 7 days ago), 69.87% fully vaccinated (+0.87% from 7 days ago).

Ontario reported 577 new cases today with a seven-day average of 717 (+2), compared to 747 a week ago. 683 recoveries and six (new) deaths translated to a decrease of 113 active cases and a new total of 6,103. -169 active cases and 41 deaths for the week. 21,133 tests with a positivity rate of 2.73%. The positivity rate is averaging 2.95% for the past seven days, compared to 3.13% for the preceding seven.

166 people in the ICU, +3 from yesterday and +1 over the past week.

Seven-day vaccination average is at 32,330 doses/day (previous week was 32,537). 74.84% of total provincial population vaccinated (+0.68% from 7 days ago), 69.26% fully vaccinated (+0.86% from 7 days ago).

Cases/100K by regional health unit:

• 33 cases in Brant: 24.3 per 100K
  
• 54 cases in Windsor-Essex: 13.9 per 100K
  
• 10 cases in Chatham-Kent: 9.4 per 100K
  
• 22 cases in Wellington-Dufferin-Guelph: 8.1 per 100K
  
• 31 cases in Niagara: 6.9 per 100K
  
• 10 cases in Southwestern Ontario: 5.0 per 100K
  
• 67 cases in Peel: 4.8 per 100K
  
• 18 cases in Middlesex-London: 4.4 per 100K
  
• 7 cases in Grey Bruce: 4.3 per 100K
  
• 46 cases in York: 4.1 per 100K
  
• 25 cases in Waterloo: 4.0 per 100K (based on provincial reporting)
  
• 116 cases in Toronto: 4.0 per 100K
  
• 21 cases in Halton: 3.8 per 100K
  
• 18 cases in Simcoe-Muskoka: 3.3 per 100K
  
• 19 cases in Hamilton: 3.3 per 100K
  
• 4 cases in Lambton: 3.1 per 100K
  
• 26 cases in Ottawa: 2.6 per 100K
  
• 4 cases in Leeds, Grenville & Lanark: 2.4 per 100K
  
• 2 cases in Huron Perth: 2.0 per 100K
  
• 13 cases in Durham: 2.0 per 100K
  
• 3 cases in Eastern Ontario: 1.5 per 100K
  
• 5 cases in Sudbury: 1.3 per 100K
  
• 1 cases in Northwestern: 1.1 per 100K
  
• 2 cases in Kingston Frontenac: 1.0 per 100K
  

[jeffster]

Yes, unless you believe that the mRNA can alter your DNA in which case we're not really having the same debate.

I shall finally fulfill my dream of becoming a crocodile (originally I said alligator but this is incorrect). Issue is that you need more than 2 doses and the province and people in general frown on one seeking the 30 required doses.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronaviru...-1.5237678

[tomh009]

Yes, unless you believe that the mRNA can alter your DNA in which case we're not really having the same debate.

I shall finally fulfill my dream of becoming a crocodile (originally I said alligator but this is incorrect). Issue is that you need more than 2 doses and the province and people in general frown on one seeking the 30 required doses.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronaviru...-1.5237678

I think at that dosage you would be able to make some good money as an urban 5G base station.

[danbrotherston]

Oh yes, this experiment where we unnecessarily infect our entire child population with a dangerous, novel virus with unknown long term consequences is going to go just swimmingly.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/more-than-...vid-study/

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthc...021-09-01/

[jeffster]

Looking at what’s happening in Alberta, what comes to mind is that until Covid-19 burns itself out, we’re going to have to keep masking and have at least some form of social distancing and restrictions.

https://calgaryherald.com/opinion/column...19-blunder

[ijmorlan]

Oh yes, this experiment where we unnecessarily infect our entire child population with a dangerous, novel virus with unknown long term consequences is going to go just swimmingly.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/more-than-...vid-study/

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthc...021-09-01/

Really, the idea that the vaccine is experimental and untested is veering into Big Lie territory.

[danbrotherston]

Oh yes, this experiment where we unnecessarily infect our entire child population with a dangerous, novel virus with unknown long term consequences is going to go just swimmingly.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/more-than-...vid-study/

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthc...021-09-01/

Really, the idea that the vaccine is experimental and untested is veering into Big Lie territory.

Not sure what you're suggesting. I wasn't calling the vaccine "experimental", in fact, I was explicitly calling allowing a virus to spread uncontrolled, as Alberta is doing, an "experiment".