Avalon Place Highway 7/8 Multi-Use Trail Crossing

[cherrypark]

Dan, no doubt it would be a better use of funds but all of the highway crossings seem to prove that working with MTO is/was impossible to get anything worthwhile done even if a "cycling facility" was added. Would much rather they just made that section of Homer Watson better (plenty of space - under the bridge is defacto tow truck mafia parking) but I'll take the bridge if that's the alternative to the status quo.

[dtkvictim]

There is no reason for that section of Homer Watson to be what it is, but I don't see what improving it would serve without the bridge also existing. At the end of the day the roundabouts are borderline impassable as a pedestrian or cyclist, and fixing that (such as with pedestrian/cycling underpasses) would cost far more than this bridge which provides a bypass to the roundabouts.

[danbrotherston]

There is no reason for that section of Homer Watson to be what it is, but I don't see what improving it would serve without the bridge also existing. At the end of the day the roundabouts are borderline impassable as a pedestrian or cyclist, and fixing that (such as with pedestrian/cycling underpasses) would cost far more than this bridge which provides a bypass to the roundabouts.

I don't see how the bridge bypasses the roundabout at all?

Basically, anyone using the bike infra west and southwest of the roundabout will continue to have access regardless of whether the underpass is at Homer Watson or Avalon Pl. (if you come down Homer Watson from the north and go west on the MUT to Strasburg you end up in the same place as if you came over the Avalon Pl. bridge.).

And it doesn't matter if you come across the Avalon Pl. bridge you'd still be unable to access the Homer Watson MUT or Ottawa St. east of Homer Watson.

So yeah, if the roundabout is the obstacle, then the Avalon Pl bridge still doesn't help, and we should have spent money fixing the roundabout (you know, the thing we just spent a fortune building because the intersection was unsafe).

But fixing the roundabout doesn't have to cost 10 million. Underpasses are the best answer, but we could do a lot to fix the bad design without going with underpasses, beacon lights, traffic signals, raised crossings, more pedestrian island and re-configuring the geometry all combined would still cost less than the bridge (which remember is massively expensive).

The main reasons we're getting a bridge is because our engineers are bad at their jobs, they don't know how to build good infra, so they don't even try...

[dtkvictim]

I don't see how the bridge bypasses the roundabout at all?

Basically, anyone using the bike infra west and southwest of the roundabout will continue to have access regardless of whether the underpass is at Homer Watson or Avalon Pl. (if you come down Homer Watson from the north and go west on the MUT to Strasburg you end up in the same place as if you came over the Avalon Pl. bridge.).

I'm not sure I follow here. Turning right from the Northwest stretch of Homer Watson towards Strasburg only lets you skip one of the roundabouts. There is still a second (albeit not quite as bad but still bad) roundabout for Alpine/the highway that you have to cross.

And it doesn't matter if you come across the Avalon Pl. bridge you'd still be unable to access the Homer Watson MUT or Ottawa St. east of Homer Watson.

Agreed, but if you refuse to use the roundabouts like I do then this bridge at least provides access to Ottawa St, Strasburg, and McLennan Park. And if you are okay with navigating the roundabout, then this bridge still lets you access the roads you've mentioned.

But fixing the roundabout doesn't have to cost 10 million. Underpasses are the best answer, but we could do a lot to fix the bad design without going with underpasses, beacon lights, traffic signals, raised crossings, more pedestrian island and re-configuring the geometry all combined would still cost less than the bridge (which remember is massively expensive).

Fair point, but I think that's a politically insurmountable solution regardless of engineers or cost. It's a bad situation all around though as I don't expect our engineers and designers to build a bridge, tunnel, or roundabout that I would be very happy using.

[danbrotherston]

I don't see how the bridge bypasses the roundabout at all?

Basically, anyone using the bike infra west and southwest of the roundabout will continue to have access regardless of whether the underpass is at Homer Watson or Avalon Pl. (if you come down Homer Watson from the north and go west on the MUT to Strasburg you end up in the same place as if you came over the Avalon Pl. bridge.).

I'm not sure I follow here. Turning right from the Northwest stretch of Homer Watson towards Strasburg only lets you skip one of the roundabouts. There is still a second (albeit not quite as bad but still bad) roundabout for Alpine/the highway that you have to cross.

And it doesn't matter if you come across the Avalon Pl. bridge you'd still be unable to access the Homer Watson MUT or Ottawa St. east of Homer Watson.

Agreed, but if you refuse to use the roundabouts like I do then this bridge at least provides access to Ottawa St, Strasburg, and McLennan Park. And if you are okay with navigating the roundabout, then this bridge still lets you access the roads you've mentioned.

But fixing the roundabout doesn't have to cost 10 million. Underpasses are the best answer, but we could do a lot to fix the bad design without going with underpasses, beacon lights, traffic signals, raised crossings, more pedestrian island and re-configuring the geometry all combined would still cost less than the bridge (which remember is massively expensive).

Fair point, but I think that's a politically insurmountable solution regardless of engineers or cost. It's a bad situation all around though as I don't expect our engineers and designers to build a bridge, tunnel, or roundabout that I would be very happy using.

You're right, I wasn't counting the Alpine & 7/8 roundabout which I find to be, while still ridiculously overbuilt, much MUCH more accessible to pedestrians.

I think if you're willing to cross the Alpine roundabout then there is no difference between the Avalon Pl. bridge and the Homer Watson crossing, would you agree?

As for the political feasibility...I don't actually agree, our councils are weak and they absolutely prioritize cars over cycling, but they do seem to care about peds and cycling, and especially pedestrians. I do think council would support fixing these things and improving Homer Watson north...I think for things like that, the real obstacle is our engineering departments incompetence and car blindness.

[dtkvictim]

You're right, I wasn't counting the Alpine & 7/8 roundabout which I find to be, while still ridiculously overbuilt, much MUCH more accessible to pedestrians.

I think if you're willing to cross the Alpine roundabout then there is no difference between the Avalon Pl. bridge and the Homer Watson crossing, would you agree?

As for the political feasibility...I don't actually agree, our councils are weak and they absolutely prioritize cars over cycling, but they do seem to care about peds and cycling, and especially pedestrians. I do think council would support fixing these things and improving Homer Watson north...I think for things like that, the real obstacle is our engineering departments incompetence and car blindness.

I have never used the Northwest crossing of that second roundabout, but it does look more reasonable on Google Maps at least. The other crossings of that roundabout I have used and would not like to use again... So yes, the options would be roughly equal in that case (avoiding driveways into the plaza would be a bonus of the bridge, but that's a universal cycling experience we have to deal with regardless).

Politically, I'm think more about the constituents. I think even supportive counselors would have to weigh the re-election risk that options like raised crossings would introduce. I know many people who live in that area of Kitchener as I grew up there, and I don't get the vibe that they would take kindly to what we would consider an acceptable roundabout.

[ZEBuilder]

You're right, I wasn't counting the Alpine & 7/8 roundabout which I find to be, while still ridiculously overbuilt, much MUCH more accessible to pedestrians.

I think if you're willing to cross the Alpine roundabout then there is no difference between the Avalon Pl. bridge and the Homer Watson crossing, would you agree?

As for the political feasibility...I don't actually agree, our councils are weak and they absolutely prioritize cars over cycling, but they do seem to care about peds and cycling, and especially pedestrians. I do think council would support fixing these things and improving Homer Watson north...I think for things like that, the real obstacle is our engineering departments incompetence and car blindness.

I have never used the Northwest crossing of that second roundabout, but it does look more reasonable on Google Maps at least. The other crossings of that roundabout I have used and would not like to use again... So yes, the options would be roughly equal in that case (avoiding driveways into the plaza would be a bonus of the bridge, but that's a universal cycling experience we have to deal with regardless).

Politically, I'm think more about the constituents. I think even supportive counselors would have to weigh the re-election risk that options like raised crossings would introduce. I know many people who live in that area of Kitchener as I grew up there, and I don't get the vibe that they would take kindly to what we would consider an acceptable roundabout.

Those roundabouts regardless of what direction you're coming from as a pedestrian/cyclist are absolutely brutal, the Alpine/Ottawa one sucks because everyone is either coming or going to the highway so pedestrians/cyclists are the last things on their minds, then the Homer Watson/Ottawa one is horrible, my commute results in me passing through them regularly and it's really quite amazing that there hasn't been more accidents involving pedestrians/cyclists, going through them during the day is bad enough, at night those are an entirely different beast because of how poorly lit they are.

The way the existing system is designed anyone in Alpine/Country Hills/McLennan Park area who wants to cycle/walk towards the downtown core has to go through at least a portion of those two roundabouts, the only other option is to go through the Block Line/Homer Watson intersection and then down Courtland or all the way to Westmount and cut back along Queen or Greenbrook both of which are horrible routes to do. Sure the bridge is costing an extensive amount of money but the reality of the current system is you either risk getting hit going through those two roundabouts or go miles out of ones way to avoid it, the bridge will solve that problem.

Certainly we could redesign those roundabouts but politically it would be a catastrophe, just think of what would happen if we decided to narrow the approaches to reduce speeds or we made raised crossings forcing drivers to slow down, now it takes an extra 2 minutes in a drivers commute, as simple as those solutions may be they are not politically feasible. The backlash would be massive. If we were to do anything to this roundabout we might as well do it to the many other horrible roundabouts as well, Bleams and Fischer Hallman comes to mind so does Erb and Ira Needles.

[KevinL]

Chandler Drive has had its westbound lane closed along the work site, for at least 3 months. Bus route 3 has a curious looping detour as a result.

[ZEBuilder]

I don't have a picture but along the stretch of Chandler that's now partial closed they have false work set up for the bridge deck. The entire thing is covered in tarps so they might have concrete poured already. There wasn't any steel for the bridge truss on site yet but looking at the plans once the concrete has cured to 70% of its 28 day strength they can start assembling the steel so realistically in the coming weeks we'll actually see the bridge come together.

[Acitta]

Avalon Place 2024-03-07
   

[ac3r]

LOL...wait...this is all they've done?!? Drive Bobcats around and pour a tiny bit of concrete? Lmfao.

It's March 2024. They began construction early 2023. The whole idea of this pedestrian sidewalk over a highway to connect a small number of single family homes that have already existed just fine for decades to some big box stores was first brainstormed nearly a decade ago. There is absolutely zero excuse as to why it has taken close to a decade to plan this, begin construction and pour less concrete than...I don't even know...than what a pool company pours in a single season haha. What a waste of money.

[Acitta]

LOL...wait...this is all they've done?!? Drive Bobcats around and pour a tiny bit of concrete? Lmfao.

It's March 2024. They began construction early 2023. The whole idea of this pedestrian sidewalk over a highway to connect a small number of single family homes that have already existed just fine for decades to some big box stores was first brainstormed nearly a decade ago. There is absolutely zero excuse as to why it has taken close to a decade to plan this, begin construction and pour less concrete than...I don't even know...than what a pool company pours in a single season haha. What a waste of money.

There was nobody on site today. Maybe they were all on the other side, but I didn't go there.

[cherrypark]

Spoken like someone who has never needed to get N-S in Kitchener on anything other than a car or train... While I personally think making Westmount and Homer Watson highway crossings better was available and would have left funds for other uses, I can't emphasize how much that highway is a gash through the city if you are outside of vehicular travel.

I also don't think the key value of its use has anything to do with that dead mall.

[SF22]

Spoken like someone who has never needed to get N-S in Kitchener on anything other than a car or train... While I personally think making Westmount and Homer Watson highway crossings better was available and would have left funds for other uses, I can't emphasize how much that highway is a gash through the city if you are outside of vehicular travel.

I also don't think the key value of its use has anything to do with that dead mall.

I was considering applying for a job at the GRT facility on Strasburg a few years ago, and one of the reasons I didn't was because the transit to/from my home was not very feasible. But if the pedestrian bridge had been in, I could have taken the bus and gotten off at Stirling/Greenbrook, and had less than a kilometre to walk to get to work. And honestly, the more pedestrians we can potentially remove from the Ottawa St roundabouts, the better. I hate driving through them in a vehicle, I can't imagine what it's like to try and navigate them safely on foot. It's shocking that more people don't get hit through that stretch.

[danbrotherston]

Spoken like someone who has never needed to get N-S in Kitchener on anything other than a car or train... While I personally think making Westmount and Homer Watson highway crossings better was available and would have left funds for other uses, I can't emphasize how much that highway is a gash through the city if you are outside of vehicular travel.

I also don't think the key value of its use has anything to do with that dead mall.

I was considering applying for a job at the GRT facility on Strasburg a few years ago, and one of the reasons I didn't was because the transit to/from my home was not very feasible. But if the pedestrian bridge had been in, I could have taken the bus and gotten off at Stirling/Greenbrook, and had less than a kilometre to walk to get to work. And honestly, the more pedestrians we can potentially remove from the Ottawa St roundabouts, the better. I hate driving through them in a vehicle, I can't imagine what it's like to try and navigate them safely on foot. It's shocking that more people don't get hit through that stretch.

The bridge was built for one reason...because it was the cheapest way for GRT to increase their service area...basically it provides access to the buses along Chandler Dr. to the homes on the other side of the highway. That is why it is where it is, and why there was any money for it. The improvement to the cycling and walking networks within the city are incidental at best.

The reason it cost as much as it did, is because the province, in it's infinite wisdom, is planning on failing to achieve it's climate goals, and thus required the bridge to be built wide enough that it wouldn't have to be widened (unlike every other bridge along the highway) when the highway is expanded to 8-10 lanes.

The bridge is the most depressing good thing that the city has ever built.