Charles St GRT terminal redevelopment

[creative]

Just because only a portion of the population uses a public facility is hardly a reason not to invest in such facilities.  One imagines that there are people in Kitchener who have never been to CITS or the KPL.

It's all a question of scale. I'm not suggesting anything about this project, but many cities spend a significant fraction of their capital budget on projects like this, which are not in line with the actual portion of the public which values the thing.

I don't know about CITS (I thought it was operated separately from the city anyway) but KPL is only a small fraction of the city's budget.

We do see this kind of aberration from governments pretty often though...Toronto is spending something like half it's 10 year capital transportation budget on a single road which serves only around 70k people a day in the city. In terms of dollars per person, it's an insane proposition. If TTC got funding at that rate, the city's transpo budget would have to be doubled and then 100% dedicated to TTC, and that's just existing ridership.

Which road would that be?

[danbrotherston]

It's all a question of scale. I'm not suggesting anything about this project, but many cities spend a significant fraction of their capital budget on projects like this, which are not in line with the actual portion of the public which values the thing.

I don't know about CITS (I thought it was operated separately from the city anyway) but KPL is only a small fraction of the city's budget.

We do see this kind of aberration from governments pretty often though...Toronto is spending something like half it's 10 year capital transportation budget on a single road which serves only around 70k people a day in the city. In terms of dollars per person, it's an insane proposition. If TTC got funding at that rate, the city's transpo budget would have to be doubled and then 100% dedicated to TTC, and that's just existing ridership.

Which road would that be?

The gardener expressway east project.

[creative]

Which road would that be?

The gardener expressway east project.

I thought that the province took over responsibility for the Gardner and DVP in exchange for the city relinquishing control of Ontario Place.

[ijmorlan]

The gardener expressway east project.

I thought that the province took over responsibility for the Gardner and DVP in exchange for the city relinquishing control of Ontario Place.

That is a very recent development.

And while it is correct that it is no longer on Toronto’s books, whether or not it is an insane project has nothing to do with who owns it.

[tomh009]

Just because only a portion of the population uses a public facility is hardly a reason not to invest in such facilities.  One imagines that there are people in Kitchener who have never been to CITS or the KPL.

It's all a question of scale. I'm not suggesting anything about this project, but many cities spend a significant fraction of their capital budget on projects like this, which are not in line with the actual portion of the public which values the thing.

I don't know about CITS (I thought it was operated separately from the city anyway) but KPL is only a small fraction of the city's budget.

Larger cities spend crazy amounts of money building expensive stadiums and arenas for billionaire-owned pro sports teams. This isn't really comparable, though.

The KPL renovation cost something like $40M. And a new CITS (which will need to happen at some point, too) will cost many times that. Building facilities is not cheap, but hockey is not the only thing that is expensive.

[nms]

It's all a question of scale. I'm not suggesting anything about this project, but many cities spend a significant fraction of their capital budget on projects like this, which are not in line with the actual portion of the public which values the thing.

I don't know about CITS (I thought it was operated separately from the city anyway) but KPL is only a small fraction of the city's budget.

Larger cities spend crazy amounts of money building expensive stadiums and arenas for billionaire-owned pro sports teams. This isn't really comparable, though.

The KPL renovation cost something like $40M. And a new CITS (which will need to happen at some point, too) will cost many times that. Building facilities is not cheap, but hockey is not the only thing that is expensive.

Massey Hall is well past the century mark (ditto places like the Royal Albert Hall) so I can imagine that there is time left in the CITS yet. I could foresee another performance venue as a sister venue to CITS (eg the way that Roy Thompson Hall complemented Massey Hall).

[ac3r]

Yeah I could see them keeping CITS and making a new venue elsewhere. Most of the stuff in this region was built for a much smaller population in mind, but we've grown faster than ever before. We'll have to grow our everything from cultural venues to keep pace, but also everything else from the hospitals, transit, recreational facilities and so on. But CITS is still a perfectly usable building and has some unique architecture, so there's no reason they'd physically get rid of it. Just build a nice new one somewhere and have both continue to operate.

[jeffster]

It's all a question of scale. I'm not suggesting anything about this project, but many cities spend a significant fraction of their capital budget on projects like this, which are not in line with the actual portion of the public which values the thing.

I don't know about CITS (I thought it was operated separately from the city anyway) but KPL is only a small fraction of the city's budget.

Larger cities spend crazy amounts of money building expensive stadiums and arenas for billionaire-owned pro sports teams. This isn't really comparable, though.

The KPL renovation cost something like $40M. And a new CITS (which will need to happen at some point, too) will cost many times that. Building facilities is not cheap, but hockey is not the only thing that is expensive.

Some cities - but you don't see it everywhere. SkyDome was funded by Ontario, I think Scotiabank Centre was all private, SkyDome (Rogers Centre) renos have been paid by your Rogers accounts (if you have any). The city of Toronto made out like bandits with BMO Field, contributing just close to $10M towards the cost of the build (Canada paid close to $30M, Ontario $10M) - and they got ownership out of it.

Back when SkyDome was owned by the province, anyone could've rented it at cost, if I recall correctly.

If the city ever did decide to build a new arena, they'd have to get the other levels of government to help, as they should, as we have paid for all those nice things in Toronto. Same applies to Tim Horton Field in The Hammer - we paid for that. Renovations are The Aud, that was all paid for by the Rangers, not a penny from tax payers.

Just realized that the city of Kitchener does a poor job at advocating for itself.

[westwardloo]

Just realized that the city of Kitchener does a poor job at advocating for itself.

The Region in general does a poor job advocating for itself. The main reason is because the provincial government, federal government and to some extents the international community just see us as 3 separate cities with under 250k people each. Unfortunately, nothing will change until amalgamation is final forced down our throats by the provincial government.

[ac3r]

Will that ever happen, though? It gets brought up seemingly each year, but the vast majority of people hate the idea. It would be a hard sell.

[westwardloo]

Will that ever happen, though? It gets brought up seemingly each year, but the vast majority of people hate the idea. It would be a hard sell.

People hate change and have an emotional attachment to where they are from/ where they grew up. This doesn't mean it's not the best thing for the future of our Region. All it takes is the right person in power to force the merger through. People will complain about the amalgamation for the next 50-100 years but most of the residents will go about their day to day life like nothing changed.

[plam]

Just realized that the city of Kitchener does a poor job at advocating for itself.

The Region in general does a poor job advocating for itself. The main reason is because the provincial government, federal government and to some extents the international community just see us as 3 separate cities with under 250k people each. Unfortunately, nothing will change until amalgamation is final forced down our throats by the provincial government.

It's not like Toronto or other big cities get a good deal from provincial governments either.

[nms]

On the other hand, Monaco (pop 31,597), seems to do pretty well. Ditto the Vatican (pop 764). ;-)

Lillehammer(pop 28,000) managed to land the Olympics in 1994. The Official "City of London" in the UK only has 8,600. The City of Oxford only has 162,000 which swells to 244,000 if you count the Metro Oxford area. In Canada, Saskatoon, the largest City in Saskatchewan has 266,000.

Drawing larger municipal boundaries just means that the regular citizens are that much further away from various types of representation (eg political representation, or a 'suburbs vs downtown' or 'my neighbourhood vs. your neighbourhood' mentality)

[westwardloo]

On the other hand, Monaco (pop 31,597), seems to do pretty well.  Ditto the Vatican (pop 764). ;-)

Lillehammer(pop 28,000) managed to land the Olympics in 1994.  The Official "City of London" in the UK only has 8,600.  The City of Oxford only has 162,000 which swells to 244,000 if you count the Metro Oxford area.  In Canada, Saskatoon, the largest City in Saskatchewan has 266,000.

Drawing larger municipal boundaries just means that the regular citizens are that much further away from various types of representation (eg political representation, or a 'suburbs vs downtown' or 'my neighbourhood vs. your neighbourhood' mentality)

haha you just named three of the most historic city states in the world. 

The first one is a playground for the rich along the coast of the mediterranean with no income tax and no industry other than casinos and tourism. Rich and influential people litteral move there so they don't have to pay income tax. 

The second one is the "capital" of the Catholic world. They have religious bank with around 3b in assets and are basically funded by tax free donations from around the globe. 

The third is a global financial hub, located within one of the most recognizable cities in the world. 

If Kitchener was the largest city in the province we would have no problem getting our fair share, but we are barely in the top ten within Ontario. As a single city we would be the close to 4th largest with a real possibility of over taking both brampton & Mississauga within the next 2 decade for #3. 

Those 'suburbs vs downtowns' or my neighbourhood vs your neighbourhoods' issues are already exist within our current government structure. Cambridge litteral turned down a planned recreational complex, because residents of kitchener would be close to it. That decision cost the city roughly $60-80 million more in construction cost, no ice pads and will open almost a decade later then the original proposal.

[Bytor]

If Kitchener was the largest city in the province we would have no problem getting our fair share, but we are barely in the top ten within Ontario. As a single city we would be the close to 4th largest with a real possibility of over taking both brampton & Mississauga within the next 2 decade for #3. 

Kitchener is the fourth largest population centre in Ontario, according to StatCan.